[IamIan]

I was just wondering what people's thoughts were about this ?

I have found a few links about it including one company talks about it here.

http://www.chechfi.ca/index.html

my questions are :

1> isn't this far more complex than described?

2> how much more performance could be expected?

3> Of course.. can it be added to an insight?

4> what kind of range is the cost ... a few hundered... a few thousand.... tens of thousands...... 6 digits????

if doable it sounds like it could add 20 to 30 MPG to an insight putting its MPG easily into the 90 range even for us non-hyper milers....

I am thinking of MIMA for more manual control of electric this for better combustion .... alternative for better combustion is a propane conversion of the insight ... but propane conversion would lose power.....

any thoughts out there about the hydrogen fuel injection idea???

 

[james]

Sounds like the latest version of the 200 mpg carburetor

I see lots of testimonials, but no obvious links to information on how it's supposed to work. That's a red flag right there

 

[Foxpaw]

There is an explanation on the site of how it allegedly operates.

It seems to use electrolysis to generate hydrogen gas (uses approximately 150 watts) while driving, and injects this into the cylinders. The hydrogen allegedly improves the combustion and allows a leaner fuel mixture to be used.

The site claims to guarantee a 10% increase in fuel economy, which is interesting. If its guaranteed, the risk of trying it seems minimal.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

So what's the hydrogen fuel source, water :?:

And if I remember my college chemistry correctly a 150w electrolysis system will only produce a minute amount of hydrogen (as a percentage of energy used in a truck moving down the highway).

Either way cold fusion is more energy efficent :!:

 

[IamIan]

more Info

I found some more info ....

Turns out they aren't the only ones who have thought about doing this...

in 1977 DOE did a research study / report showing that ...

"Adding 5 % hydrogen to the gasoline provides 30 % to 40 % less NOx
emission. "

More Recently MIT found the same thing but also found that ....

"hydrogen-enhanced gasoline engines could eventually increase
the average efficiency of cars and other light-duty vehicles by 20 percent."

..... sooooo......

It seems that HFI from the link is aiming for the small % injects that lead the DOE to get 30 to 40% less Emmissions...... And they are claiming 10% increases in efficiency while MIT studies show 20% being possible.....

Sooooo This will cost in the thousands to tens of thousands since no mass production is done at all.... or lease it for hundereds per month.... for up to 40% further reduction in Insight Emmitions and 10% better MPG ....

So doable... but for that kind of money I will do a full Electric Conversion.

If costs came way down it might be the kind of thing a mass produced vehicle could see in it some day if MPG becomes more popular than HP or Speed and more popular than LARGE SUVs.... If the mass public fully embraces it then in the price range of sport cars you might see this techonolgy used..... but we all know the mass public isn't going to do that... and I mean ever.... Gas prices have more than doubled in the last 5 years.... and yet there are more people on the roads drivign less fuel effecient cars... like SUVs than ever.... In short as long as they can aford it they don't care.

 

[SVOboy]

Hmm

Hydrogen fuel injection has also been talked about here: http://www.gassavers.org/node/123

Flatland knows a lot about it as he has done lots of research and is working on testing different electrolytes and all that for when he builds his own model. So if you're looking to get hold on something to actually do it, I'd get in contact with him.[/url]

 

[b1shmu63]

The MIT work is in regard to a device called the Plsmatron," The Plasma Fuel Reformer uses an electrical plasma (a strong, continuous “spark”) to combust partially a mixture of air and the vechicle’s hydrocarbon fuel -- diesel or gasoline. Because there is deliberately insufficient air to support combustion, the fuel dissociates to create a hydrogen-rich gas rather than burning. That hydrogen-rich gas can be used to improve or even enable the operation of other exhaust emission systems."

It does not seem to be related to the hydrogen electrolysis device mentioned.

 

[Aaron Cake]

I've seen this system firsthand. Seems to work well. They rely on a "custom designed" electrolyzer to provide the hydrogen. To me, it looked like a heater and a big 5V DC-DC converter. They claimed a 10-20% improvement on their demo truck, and based on their material I would believe a 10% is easy.

However, the Insight is not a typical ICE. It relies on very specific parameters (intake, combustion, ignition and fuel tuning) to achieve it's mileage. Introducing other elements may just break it...

 

[jl47]

hi,

http://www.hydrogen-boost.com has a ready to install kit, and it works.
They have a saturn killing the insight in normal mileage figures - over 100mpg (112 I think). It won some driving mileage contest, so it is legit. I think it wouldn't be suitable for the Honda as this car was very strictly engineered to run exactly the way it does, making rather large untested changes is better left to Honda. (I consider MIMA and superchargers small changes).

 

[Kobushi]

I'd like to try it, but at $750, that's a pricey gamble

 

[IamIan]

I also have to wonder about the MPG improvements... as they talk about the hydrogen letting the car run in a leaner burning mode.... the Insight already does this.... so for cars without a lean burn mode it may give them one but the Insight wouldn't benefit from that part... but would benefit from the lowered emmissions.... but how much lower would a insight go and would it be worth $800+???

I think the electric boost for PHEV has more potential.

 

[b1shmu63]

Running a leaner fuel mixture can improve mileage significantly. In a normal car that also increases polutants in the exhaust dramatically. The Insight uses custom programming and a two stage stage catalytic system to allow it to run lean burn without the hydrogen.

Add hydrogen to oil and get margarine, add hydrogen to gas and get........margoline?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Add hydrogen to oil and get margarine, add hydrogen to gas and get........margoline?

GROAN :!: That was BAD Kip. At least my Acura pun was "hidden". This one is in-your-face.

Remember that you can't simply lean an air-fuel mix in a gasoline engine and get better MPG. There is a "window" of chemistry and physics at work. Outside this range not only do emmissions rise, but combustion efficiency falls. And rapidly to the point of negative returns.

Apparently the hydrogen injection "compensates" for some of the chemistry and physical limitations of burning a lean mixture by maintaining sufficient "lean" combustion efficiency.

I suspect that since hydrogen is a HIGHLY combustible gas that it starts the burn and envelopes the lean fuel vapor enabling what would otherwise fail to burn.

What the Insight achieves through careful intake flow and a stratified charge this system does in a different way. As a result you probably wouldn't see any gains if this was installed on an Insight.

HTH!

 

[rusty41251]

A friend of my parents has a home made system based on this. He took me for a ride in his old Chevy van. Feel the difference with it on and off he said? No, I said. Here watch the increase in power he said. 0-60 stock took 16 seconds. (Old van). Now watch. With the system on 0-60 took 16 seconds. See he said. No, I said. Well we need acurate testing.
Sorry, I don't see this working.

 

[Aaron Cake]

The professionally made systems produce a LOT more hydrogen then any home system that I have heard of. The one I saw did this by heating the water to several hundred degrees in a pressure vessel and then running a high current through it (which I assume would also require a high voltage due to Ohm's law). Not that I'm overly excited about this idea because the energy to produce the hydrogen does have to come from somewhere, but it does work...

 

[IamIan]

It doesn't have to be high current to be high Voltage... Think of a tazzer which gets very high voltage but low current from often times AA Batteries... Or static electricity often times is hundereds of volts and can easily go into thousands of volts but has very very small amount of current.

You are definately right about one thing though the energy to make the hydrogen has to come from somewhere.... And with no energy transfer or conversion being even 100% Hydrogen from electricity produced by an alternator being turned by the ICE .... will always be not very net efficient....

From what I have seen and read since feb 2005 when I first posted here about the Hydrogen option is that it is a simpler way to get a ICE to run in lean burn without the extra work that honda put into th Insight ICE, and can be put onto regular Car ICEs for a after market Lean Burn.... That is where the Fuel Saves Comes From and since The Insight Already does lean burn... going to even higher levels of lean burn by adding Hydrogen to the Insight will have far less to gain than the original addition of lean burn to other engines.... Hydorgen injection can reduce the emmisions just becuase of how it works chemically.... so if an insight were to get this... it would really only be for further emissions befenit and not much more MPG....

The other thing I think allot of people forget about Hydrogen is that it may have a very high energy densisty per pound it is VERY low energy density per Volume / per Gallon.... Regular Unleaded Gasoline has much much more energy per Gallon / Per vollume than Hydrogen does if I cut the Gasoline by 5% to add 5% Hydrogen by volume... You will have less power from the engine.... the MIT and DOE studies show it will be more efficient and produce less / lower emissions... but it will have lower power.... anyone with an Insight knows about the decrease of power from when lean burn kicks in.... so you get the loss of power from lean burn, now add further loss of power from the lower energy density per volume of Hydrogen.

 

[Aaron Cake]

Power is constant regardless of current or voltage. 5W at 10V is the same as 5W at 500,000V. Tasers produce high voltage at very low currents (or some use CDI circuits to provide high current spikes).