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Discussion Starter #1
I wanted to buy a CVT Insight, but was disappointed with its lack of lean-burn. That really hurts the fuel economy (60v.90 mpg during my test drive).

Has anyone figured out how to re-activate the CVT's lean-burn?
 

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I don't think that it's simply deactivated through software on the CVT. The CVT has a slightly different engine, a completely different ECU and possibly a different BCM. Since the CVT doesn't have lean-burn, it probrably also doesn't have the three-way catalytic converter required for lean burn.

It might be possible to get lean burn on a CVT if you made your own ECM. (Though without the three-way cat it would pollute alot in lean burn mode.)
 
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Hi ElectricTroy and Foxpaw:

___The Japanese CVT based Insight’s have lean burn and IIRC, someone here posted that the HW is all there (NOx CAT) but it just wasn’t implemented for some reason? I am by no means totally sure of this information however :(

___Anyway, since it does not and its mileage capabilities are not that much better if any then the HCH, I wouldn’t touch one given its rather mediocre fuel economy capabilities and slower performance. The 5-speed’s clutch action is so light as to be a non-issue even in the deepest of large city traffic jams let alone the wild fuel economy ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1g4qlhjd][email protected][/email:1g4qlhjd]

 

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Discussion Starter #4
I like the CVT because it's so smoooooth. I suspect the belt-drive dampens most of the engine & road vibration. I love the way a CVT-equipped car feels.
xcel said:
___The Japanese CVT based Insight’s have lean burn and IIRC, someone here posted that the HW is all there (NOx CAT) but it just wasn’t implemented for some reason?
Well I know WHY the lean-burn was turned off - because Honda wanted to match the Prius' SULEV performance. Turning lean-burn off reduces the NOx output from ULEV to SULEV levels.


So in theory I could import a chip from Japan, plug it into an American CVT Insight, and get lean-burn.

Anyone know how to get that imported chip?
 
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Hi ElectricTroy:

ElectricTroy said:
Well I know WHY the lean-burn was turned off - because Honda wanted to match the Prius' SULEV performance. Turning lean-burn off reduces the NOx output from ULEV to SULEV levels.
___Unfortunately, I do not believe this in its entirety. The HCH is available in PZEV format with leanburn including the extra NOx CAT.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1y9iwpjd][email protected][/email:1y9iwpjd]

 

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Discussion Starter #6
xcel said:
ElectricTroy said:
Well I know WHY the lean-burn was turned off - because Honda wanted to match the Prius' SULEV performance. Turning lean-burn off reduces the NOx output from ULEV to SULEV levels.
___Unfortunately, I do not believe this in its entirety. The HCH is available in PZEV format with leanburn including the extra NOx CAT.
There's a California Civic Hybrid SULEV/PZEV*, but I don't think it's lean-burn. I believe Honda inactivated it for the same reason as the Insight SULEV... lean-burn makes too much NOx.

Perhaps you have an alternate reason why, immediately after Toyota released a SULEV Prius, Honda released a SULEV too (no lean-burn Insight)? I'm curious what you think.



* (PZEV is really nothing unique. It's simply a SULEV car with an extended catalytic converter warranty - 150,000(?) miles. Honda, Toyota, and Acura were able to get CA-PZEV qualification on their existing SULEV vehicles without modification.)
 

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Hrrmm. So you say the Japanese CVTs have lean burn. In that case, it may truly be as simple as changing the ECM. Emphasis on may. There could be other components that are matched to the ECM that might also need to be changed.
 
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Hi ElectricTroy:

___The HCH’s all have lean burn irregardless of PZEV or ULEV ratings according to Honda’s web site. Look at the mileage figures of both as an example. The std. Civic DX/LX/EX vs. the Civic Coupe HX is another example of a leanburn equipped automobile whose EPA estimates sky rocket in comparison to the non-leanburn equipped ICE’s.

___As far as PZEV being only an SULEV with the extended warranty, you could not be farther from the truth. A PZEV purchased today does have exhaust emissions rated at SULEV but a std. SULEV is not rated as a PZEV. There are quite a few HW additions to stop or reduce the three std. test modes of evaporative emissions on a PZEV that a straight SULEV does not include.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:7pe643us][email protected][/email:7pe643us]

 

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Discussion Starter #9
xcel said:
___The HCH’s all have lean burn irregardless of PZEV or ULEV ratings according to Honda’s web site.
Hmmm... well I'm impressed. If Honda can operate lean-burn AND reduce NOx at the same time, that's some amazing engineering.


There are quite a few HW additions to stop or reduce the three std. test modes of evaporative emissions on a PZEV that a straight SULEV does not include.

Ahhh, I did not know about the evaporative part. Thanks! Can I import a PZEV Insight from California to Pennsylvania?
 
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Hi ElectricTroy:

___You don’t need to import a PZEV all the way from California as they are also available in your locale as well. Namely, New York, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Maine.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:20yxp3cy][email protected][/email:20yxp3cy]

 

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Discussion Starter #11
BACK TO SUBJECT:



Since Japanese CVT Insights have lean-burn, can the Japanese Engine Chip be imported?
 

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I'd be very interested in that, too. With lean burn, we'd be at or above the manual's MPG, which would make this already amazing car even more mindblowing.
 

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The manual version of the Insight has a different engine that gets 2 more
horsepower (maybe it is just a different cylinder head). There are also
more fuel lines that go from the engine bay to the gas tank. I would guess
that these extra lines are related to the purging that happends during lean
burn. So what I am suggesting is that it may take more than an ECU / M
change to get lean burn - We CVTers still get good gas mileage and great
emissions SULEV. I am satisfied with 60 MPG !!!!

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

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Ok getting this out of the way. The CVT would not get better mileage than the 5 speed no matter what. There is always going to be less drag and weight with a manual transmission; however, there is room for improvment with lean burn. Looking at http://www.honda.co.jp translated through babelfish translator the fuel efficiency numbers for the japanese Insight are 36 Km/L for the manual and 32 Km/L for the automatic.

Here's the clincher though. The manual Insight in the US is a 10.8 to 1 compression ratio where the automatic is a 10.3 to 1. The Japanese page lists 10.8 to 1 for both transmissions so we're talking a different engine here. I was going to say perhaps you could try and get the japanese ECU, with no guarantee's it would work, but this puts a big dampener on the possibility.

Anyway back to those fuel economy numbers. Comparing 36 to 32 is only about a 9% difference, whereas you compare 56mpg to 64mpg yes thats a larger difference at 13% (granted this is the japanese fuel economy test vs the US's fuel economy test). So if you figure this in you theoretically are looking at more like 58 combined mpg with the CVT with lean burn.

I'm guessing they had some incentives to make SULEV car's here. I'm also guessing at some point they may have considered not making our 5 speeds without lean burn so they could all be SULEV, but luckily they didn't. I'm not saying the ECU swap wouldn't work, but the fact that it's a different engine makes me lean the other way. Plus really, if ECU's cost anything like what they do here it would probably be really expensive to get one shipped here.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Horsepower & compression ratios are dependent upon the *software* not the engine. You could have exactly the same engine in both versions, but simply change the software.

(shrug) If I had a CVT Insight, I would still try it... just to see what happens.
 

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My 2 cents:

Compression ratios are dependant of the engine's head and if the heads are similar, it is the piston's shape that can control ratios.
I would think that it is through the pistons that they made the difference, a less round top shape.

A higher compression ratios usually means a more efficient combustion, more MPG

Horsepower can be dependant to the software. But more HP through software usually means less MPG as the new chip will use more gas for the added HP
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I see.

Making two different engines for <500 units per year, each, doesn't make good fiscal sense to me, but whatever (shrug),
 
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