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Discussion Starter #1
IMA battery holds less charge after update

After I had my ima battery update I noticed that I din't have the same charge on battery as before. The battery will run down in about 5 miles of in town driving following the recommended gear change light in the dash. Approx. 1/3 of the battery charge is used up on a freeway on ramp. It's definitely not holding a charge like it used to.

I took it in to the dealer and they called Honda and was informed that this is now the way the car will operate after the update. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same problem after the update? If my car and everyone else's is operating like this after the update then the cars are not operating as intended and there is no way to get the gas mileage as stated and claimed by Honda.

Please everyone respond with your ima battery experience after having the update.

Thanks,

David
 

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Re: IMA battery holds less charge after update

Hi David and welcome to the forum :!: :)

Don't fee too shy to start a new topic when there's not a recent ON TOPIC thread to reply in. :) I split this one out of the warranty extension sticky thread.

I'm reading between the lines here but is seems like you in one of the states that gets the updated controllers first.

YUP :!: Your now seeing some of the NiMH memory effect. Several other Insighters have reported similar behavior. It may reduce over the next few months of driving, or not. It depends on the overall IMA pack's condition. Once the IMA pack codes with a code of "death" then you can get the batteries warrantied as long as they fail within the new extended period, 10 years or 150,000 miles. :)

Sorry, but that's how it works.

Remember this is a goodwill warranty extension and a VERY good deal compared to your other option of paying for them yourself. So sit tight and enjoy the ride. Your not alone. :)

HTH! :)
 

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Thanks John for starting this new thread. I was going to start one this evening.
I am having the same issues as muzikmakur (David). I had my warranty replacement a couple of weeks ago. The work performed is as follows:
Replace IMA battery and Module
26565 WH 1.40
1 06060-PHM-307 KIT,MOTOR ECU
1 1D010-PHM-A00RM BATTERY MODULE


It was performed at 137010 miles. Tonight I have 138146 miles. I have not had over 1/2 charge in the last three days. It will drop to about 4 bars and sloooowwwwlllllyyy charge to about 1/2 in 48 miles. The first couple of days it would charge to full. One time it charged ALL the way.(even the last light. Now it's not charging much different than my old battery and BCM. Tomorrow before I leave for work, I am going to reset by removing the 12v. negative cable for a few seconds. With my old pack, I did that two to three times in 48 miles. I am going to email the service manager this information tonight and follow up with a call tomorrow.

Can anyone tell if the part numbers listed above are the IMA battery, the BCM and the ECU. It looks like the ECU and the battery , but NOT the BCM. It doesn't act like the BCM was changed either.
 

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I've posted several times before, but I have the same situation with a '00 with about 76k miles, and new battery and modules. It's definitely not the same car I bought anymore, and I don't like it. My SOC will decline to 3 or 4 bars just driving from my house to the highway entrance, and then take as long as 40 miles of highway driving to show full, or within 1 or 2 bars of the top of the indicator, all the while showing charging activity and getting, of course, lousy mileage. It's been months, and the situation has remained the same, so I don't believe it's a battery memory problem. I'd advise anyone with a chance to do it to beg for just a new battery pack when it goes, but to try to keep the old modules. :cry: - Pat
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for you insight, Insightful Trekker.

1) Please explain the NiMH memory effect.
2) What make's you think this is a goodwill warranty extension. What good is a warranty extension if the thing drains in 5 miles of city driving. I propose that it is indeed not about goodwill but about the almighty dollar. Try this scenario :
a) Batteries going dead are costing Honda money
b) They've found that if they don't charge them as fast and as good, the batteries keep going and going and going, but the car doesn't really function now as it did before or as it should.
c) Probem: the customer is not going to be happy; we can try to appease them by lengthening their warranty. It will make us look good and maybe disstract them from the fact that the car doesn't work anymore as intended.
d) We're discontinuing this car anyway and we don't want to put anymore money into development of a better battery for this particular car.

3) There is no way the car can get the mileage that is claimed and advertised by Honda with the battery losing charge like this. I don't think they can legally make this sort of change. This may be abled to be challenged in court.

4) I'd advise anyone who hasn't had the update done not to do it and just go with the old warranty. What the use of having the battery if it's not available for use 50% of the time. Buy a 100k warranty if you don't have one. I will have mine reversed if I can.

5) I would advise anyone who has already had the update and are dissatisfied , to write a letter to Honda Customer Relations pointing out your dissatifaction and their responsibility to bring the car back to it's original operating condition.
 

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I just compared your work with mine (mine was done recently) and found the exact same two FP-Number.

Since the problem states IMA BCM allows the battery to overcharge... I guess that's why they reduced the charging current in the new ones to charge the battery slower. I did find I need to drive at least 150 miles on the freeway to fully charge it.

LoNOx 1 said:
Thanks John for starting this new thread. I was going to start one this evening.
I am having the same issues as muzikmakur (David). I had my warranty replacement a couple of weeks ago. The work performed is as follows:
Replace IMA battery and Module
26565 WH 1.40
1 06060-PHM-307 KIT,MOTOR ECU
1 1D010-PHM-A00RM BATTERY MODULE


It was performed at 137010 miles. Tonight I have 138146 miles. I have not had over 1/2 charge in the last three days. It will drop to about 4 bars and sloooowwwwlllllyyy charge to about 1/2 in 48 miles. The first couple of days it would charge to full. One time it charged ALL the way.(even the last light. Now it's not charging much different than my old battery and BCM. Tomorrow before I leave for work, I am going to reset by removing the 12v. negative cable for a few seconds. With my old pack, I did that two to three times in 48 miles. I am going to email the service manager this information tonight and follow up with a call tomorrow.

Can anyone tell if the part numbers listed above are the IMA battery, the BCM and the ECU. It looks like the ECU and the battery , but NOT the BCM. It doesn't act like the BCM was changed either.
 

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LoNOx 1 said:
Can anyone tell if the part numbers listed above are the IMA battery, the BCM and the ECU. It looks like the ECU and the battery , but NOT the BCM. It doesn't act like the BCM was changed either.
Take a look at the part numbers listed here: TSB 06-057

It looks to me like you got a new IMA Battery, BCM, and MCM.

This may be a CVT vs MT issue (since the MCM has a different part number), but my car has performing better than ever since I had the new battery installed.
 

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muzikmakur said:
Thanks for you insight, Insightful Trekker.

1) Please explain the NiMH memory effect.
Google is your friend. ;)


muzikmakur said:
2) What make's you think this is a goodwill warranty extension.
<snip>
HUH :!: :? Read the warranty extension thread :!:

"Spin" the PR any way you want. Its a free country. However, the alternative is plain, beyond 8/80 it would have been your nickel.

muzikmakur said:
5) I would advise anyone who has already had the update and are dissatisfied , to write a letter to Honda Customer Relations pointing out your dissatifaction and their responsibility to bring the car back to it's original operating condition.
Good point. However the NiMH memory effect can take _months_ of driving to normalize to the new charging algorithm. Or the IMA batteries are already too far gone to "recover". Or the new charge algorithm is too desensitized to charging.

In any case hyper MPG has been _proven_ to be accomplished with little or no use of IMA Assist. Your MPG "argument" is a non sequitur.

Sincerely,
 

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At 1/2 charge showing on the gauge this morning, I removed the 12v. negative cable for a reset. In exactly 4.0 miles, the forced charging stopped and the charge indicator was lit to 100%. All the bars including the one normally unlit bar were lit. I arrived at work with only 2 bars unlit. I arrived home this evening with 2 bars unlit. I drove fairly fast @ 60 to 65 today in rain and used assist. The rate of charge kept it up very well.
I didn't get a chance to call the dealer today and they did not call me. I thought they would after I sent a lengthy detailed email of the issue.
The reset did help!
Tubesguy, would you and muzikmakur like to try the same reset to see if it helps your's as well??

In any case hyper MPG has been _proven_ to be accomplished with little or no use of IMA Assist. Your MPG "argument" is a non sequitur.
I don't think I could drive without using assist. Now, it seems that if you even think about assist, it begins! The warranty update has a VERY different pattern.
 

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muzikmakur said:
Yes I would like to do the 12v reset. How did you do it?

thanks
Remove the 12v. negative (black) cable from the battery for about 5 seconds.
 

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Take a look at the part numbers listed here: TSB 06-057
Thanks Sean! I thought I had read that somewhere but couldn't find it.

Yesterday morning I did the reset with 1/2 of the charge bars lit. In exactly 4 miles it went from zero to ALL lit, even the last one. I arrived at work with all but two lit and the commute home had the same result. Assist worked the same but the charge pattern was totally different.
 

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Does FAS (key off) seem to cause the charge problem?
 

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Why is the mileage worse because of the battery issue. Some people have reported getting BETTER mileage without the battery assist at all. And I haven't seen charging suck up that much energy that mileage would dropped significantly.

How much is the change in mpg that you've seen?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Still a drainin and not a chargin

Did the 12v reset and then I couldn't make the the battery discharge at all for a while (which of course is not possible since I could tell by the amount of power that I had that it was being used) but now we're back to the same drain we had before. I'm seeing some other issues also. At one point I had a very low battery and on the highway and the charging mechanism doesn't even kick in and start charging the battery as we all know it should. Anybody else having this problem?
 

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Re: Still a drainin and not a chargin

muzikmakur said:
I'm seeing some other issues also. At one point I had a very low battery and on the highway and the charging mechanism doesn't even kick in and start charging the battery as we all know it should.
May or may not be a "problem".

See:

Recal's, Forced charge, IMA Battery and Thermal mgmt - long
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=750
 

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Resurrecting an old thread. I did the four charges three discharges with the Prolong charger and discharger. The charger said 172 volts on the final ~26 hour charge but when I got in the car the bar gauge showed less than half charge. After about a mile drive I was up to a "full" charge of 80%+.

Over the next few days the IMA battery power was consumed faster than it was replaced. Voltage on the Perkins "Black Box" showed percentages of charge in the high 40's to low to mid 50's. Very spooky. Then yesterday on a slight downhill it jumped to 80%+ very quickly. It has dropped some but is hovering now in the high 70's. I will take it for a quick 30 minute drive out and 30 minute back drive and see how the IMA does. The car draws energy from the IMA at a good rate and is quite peppy as a result. My mileage is in the mid 60's.

Has anybody experienced this and what was the cause and what was the cure?
 

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I recently did the identical three discharge, four charges- ending at 173 volts. Hoping to drive my Insight to InsightFest - so will see how the IMA battery holds up and responds. It’s an old battery, so a new bumblebee may be in my future....?
 

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Resurrecting an old thread. I did the four charges three discharges with the Prolong charger and discharger. The charger said 172 volts on the final ~26 hour charge but when I got in the car the bar gauge showed less than half charge. After about a mile drive I was up to a "full" charge of 80%+....
This sounds pretty typical to me - if you didn't reset the IMA by pulling a fuse, or the 12V neg cable, or didn't charge with key-ON, none of which are necessary. Sounds like the BCM nominal state of charge resumed from where it was before your reconditioning work, and then, after a short drive, it 'pos recal-ed' to 80%. That would be normal, expected...

Over the next few days the IMA battery power was consumed faster than it was replaced. Voltage on the Perkins "Black Box" showed percentages of charge in the high 40's to low to mid 50's. Very spooky....
I'm not getting what's "spooky" about this. This too would be normal - if you're using more assist than regen, particularly if you're driving without the headlights and/or AC (background charge off the ICE happens sooner, more frequently if you have headlights or AC on)...

A couple other things to keep in mind, though. Sounds like you might have one of the 'later model' BCMs. I've been experimenting with one lately, and I think these later models all pos recal directly to ~80% nominal, disable regen and drain 6%, and/or spontaneously erase 6% from the nominal SoC readout (on the OBDIIC&C). For example, if you're driving and using assist, when it gets to about 72% it will jump directly down to 65%, and in other cases, if after a pos recal the state of charge is above something like 72% and you leave the car, the next time you come back it will be 6% lower.

The point is, the nominal SoC readout on the OBDIIC&C gets pulled down quickly, once by 6% drain and again by the 6% spontaneous jump down. There's also other things that happen. If the later model BCM I've been testing is representative of other ones that pos recal directly to 80%, then in general the OBDIIC&C SoC reading will be a lot higher than the actual state of charge. For example, currently my OBDIIC&C readout is about 60%, when the actual state of charge is more like 20%, definitely no higher than 50%... My other older BCMs have the nominal SoC hewing much closer to the actual...

Then yesterday on a slight downhill it jumped to 80%+ very quickly. It has dropped some but is hovering now in the high 70's.... Has anybody experienced this and what was the cause and what was the cure?
Another thing I noticed with this BCM is that it has a low pos recal threshold - it jumps to 80% much sooner than my other BCMs would jump to 75%... In case you're not familiar, in general the BCM tracks state of charge by counting current, but in order to establish the top and bottom, it needs to watch mainly voltage, tap voltages, for hitting the right values. So, for example, after your grid charge, you got back in the car and the BCM had the state of charge set to whatever it was at when you left it. But then, it jumped up to 80%, presumably after it saw that one or more tap voltages was at the high 'full' threshold. That's a 'positive recal'...

So, on your downhill drive, most likely a tap voltage hit the high full threshold value and so the nominal SoC reading jumped to 80%. That's generally normal behavior...
 
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