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I drive a 2000 Insight w/85K miles in Western North Carolina. After the temperature dropped to below freezing one night recently, the IMA charge indicator showed a nearly full charge but the car behaved as if the charge was very low -- that is, there was little indication of assist even when driving on a route where the assist function normally comes on. But there is also little indication of recharging as if the IMA battery were really low. The indicator has stayed at about 7/8 full for about three weeks now. With one exception -- it dropped way down to two bars for about 5 minutes a couple weeks ago, and then was immediately back up to 7/8 full. Any ideas?
 

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IMA problems

Hi Crayton,

Pull the fuse no 18 (7.5A) for 10 secs, replace, pull no 15 (40A) and start the engine. Run for 5-10 mins at 3500 rpm until the batt gauge reads full. I had this problem with my 1st Insight last year, and now 2 days ago with my younger one (100,000 km). I had to do this twice, and then after a few miles a recal occurred and this fixed the problem. It is purely a software problem and don't worry about failing batteries or new IMA controllers. My #1 now has 240.000km on the clock and is still going!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Many thanks, high milieage! I'll give it a shot and let you know. BTW, how did you figure this out?

crayton
 

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http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclope ... orage.html

That's the IMA reset proceedure.

If the MCM or BCM gets confused then a reset will clear things up. And it will reset their learned parameters. But if the behavior is learned then the "problem" will recurr. Nor are frequent resets a good idea either. IMA charge and assist do "unusual" things sometimes for weeks on end.

Its normal most of the time.

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi Trekker. A belated thank-you for your first suggestion, but I actually couldn't find anything to help me in that thread. This morning I tried pulling the fuses as high mileage suggested and there was no reset. At first running the engine at 3500 RPM produced a charge indication on the dashboard, but eventually that stopped and the SOC indicator stayed stuck at 80-90%. No recal after driving around a while. Before getting the fuse suggestion I had made an appointment with the local dealer for tomorrow, 1/5. I'll let you know if their guy comes up with anything.

Crayton
 

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Hi Crayton,

Just to be sure we understand each other, when you pull the 18 or disconnect the battery, you should automatically get a reset with a zero charge indication on starting up. After removing 15 (power steering) (& leave it OUT for this procedure) and starting the engine, the charge should slowly go up from zero and maybe jump the last few bars quickly. Replace 15 and drive around for a day or two as normal. You should get a recal within a week.
I got this information initially from the Forum, and it is confirmed by the Honda service CD as being the official reset procedure, as Trekker rightfully pointed out. But I cannot understand why a reset should be tricky or produce curious results! If the charge management "learns", then the initial driving style is obviously important. A reset can do no more than set up default parameters.

How did you get on with the dealer. Anything to report?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for checking in on this High Mileage. When I pulled fuse 18, I left it out for 10 seconds, and then put it back in. I then pulled 15, left it out and started the car. The SOC indicator remained at its usual 90%. It did not zero out. I ran the car at 3500 anyway and got an indication of charging. This indication disappeared in about 3 minutes, so I stopped the engine and replaced fuse 15. In subsequent driving there was no change in the SOC indicator.

When I told the dealer what I had done, he said that was the standard procedure for the IMA battery to recalibrate. He checked all the codes and said everything was normal. He took the car out (on a fairly warm day) and drove up a mountain. He reported that he could not duplicate the loss of IMA assist that I often experience (usual on cold an/or wet days).

I tried the fuse pulling again a day or two later and still got no change. I'll try again and disconnect the battery this time.

I'll let you know if and when I get this to go to zero.

Crayton
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Here's the latest. I finally zeroed out the SoC indicator by disconnecting the 12V battery. After pulling the 40A fuse and running the engine at 3500 RPM for about 5 minutes, the guage was back to full, and charging had stopped. I'm now driving around normally, waiting to see if the guage ever drops below the 90% level.

Trekker, I'm not sure what you're referring to that I missed in the thread you suggested. I remember reading that the effect of weather is mysterious (or words to that effect), a statement that fits my experience for sure but still didn't address the question of why the guage stayed at 90%. If I see a low guage around the time I'm getting no battery assist, then at least I feel like I understand what's happening, even though I might not know why the charge had dropped. That weather affects the IMA battery I accept; but I'm frustrated by getting conflicting information from the guage and the engine's behavior. Because this problem did not occur in the two previous winters of driving, I figure it is something that out to be fixable.

Crayton
 
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All, I read this string and the link that Inisghtful Trekker pointed out, but I'm not sure (or not smart enough to see the connection :? ) to my 2000 Insight's recent odd behavior. We had a night in the 20s, rare in this part of California, and the next day my battery was at 4 or so bars and wouldn't budge off of that all day. I live at the top of a big hill (1100 feet), so it is normal to be low on battery at the top, and all charged up by the time I reach work in 25 miles.

It warmed up in the day, so I took the car out at lunch - no luck. I drove home, up the big hill, and the car behaved as though it had full battery.

The next it was cold, but not quite as cold, and the car is behaving normally. It is time for my 60k service, so I made an appt for tomorrow at dealer. Should I ask them to reset the IMA or, since all is behaving again, just let it be? It has never done this in the 6 years I've had the car...

If I missed the key part in the strings, kindly point it out to me. I am a blonde... :oops:
 

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There are all sorts of what appears to be "abnormal" behavour of the IMA SoC gauge. IMA thermal management is one of several.

Forcing a reset for something that is in all probability _normal_ does nothing but push the IMA batteries through another full recharge cycle.

There have been extensive discussions of all of the different "quirks" that different Insighter's have reported. IIRC so far with _one_ exception their all normal.

So what's the exception you ask :?: Low SoC with no ability to charge or assist and won't recover except briefly after a reset. No IMA light, but in this one case I'm familiar it ended up being bad IMA batteries. The "problem" was _consistant_ and readily _reproducable_.

IIRC is was member Scott__? in Tx a couple of years back that reported this in a thread here with his Insight.

HTH! :)
 
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I had my 60k service today, the only person who works on hybrids at my dealership is the head service guy, and he seems to be pretty knowledgable. He said he tested the batteries and they are fine... so he didn't do a reset on the IMA.

I'll keep an eye on the displays (as if there is any other way to drive this car :D ) and look for reproduceability. And I'll hope for warmer weather!

Thanks for your feedback.
 

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Just to clairify Sharon's dealership expereince. There is NO way for a Honda dealership to "test" the IMA batteries.

However, their DCS scan tool can access the IMA battery sub-pack data and look at some parameters that can't be accessed unless disassembled. But those values, until they reach a threshold basically mean nothing. And there is one threshold that I am aware of that is a programmed IMA fault code point. If he was "seeing" that point then the IMA light should have been on with a bad battery code. So I'm not sure how he's interpreting the readings saying the batteries are "good". With the one exception as noted eariler in this thread.

So yes Sharon's Insight friendly tech did go the extra mile to insure it wasn't an IMA failure without an IMA code. But neither did Sharon have the symptoms that would indicate such a test might reveal anything.

"Worn" IMA batteries are like tires. They don't perform as well as when they are new and the loss of performance is noticable as the miles roll by. But very few of us (maybe Guillermo is an exception :p ;) ) buy new tires because their 1/2 worn out.

HTH! :)
 

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In case anyone is still following this thread, I can report that the mystery is solved. The IMA battery was in its death throes. Finally the IMA light came on last week, and my dealer could read a code telling him that the battery had "deteriorated." Fortunately Honda had extended the warranty to something greater than the 85,000 miles I had on mine, and three days later I drove away with a new battery. Thogh 7 years old, the car now behaves like it did when I first drove it home in 2004.

Crayton
 

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[Moderator note to members: Quoted here in immediate reply in its entirity due to the page break.]

crayton said:
In case anyone is still following this thread, I can report that the mystery is solved. The IMA battery was in its death throes. Finally the IMA light came on last week, and my dealer could read a code telling him that the battery had "deteriorated." Fortunately Honda had extended the warranty to something greater than the 85,000 miles I had on mine, and three days later I drove away with a new battery. Thogh 7 years old, the car now behaves like it did when I first drove it home in 2004.

Crayton
There was no "mystery" crayton.

IMA SoC does all sorts of "strange" things and 99% of the time its _normal_. That was what you were supposed to be able to "read between the lines" in the link I gave above. In one documented case here the "abnormailty" continued for over a year before the IMA warning light illuminated and its code indicated a deteoriated battery pack. So far there has only been one member documented exception to getting a pack warrantied _without_ the IMA warning light coding such. A repeateable and reproducable lack of assist (after some extensive testing by the dealer).

You really need to "get out" more often. :p There a prominent "sticky" post enumerating the new IMA battery warranty extension in the General Discussion forum. 10year/150K mile.

Thanks for the follow-up post in closure. :) So few members go to the extra trouble. :/

Sincerely,
 
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