[redracer]

My saga continues but after reading some posts and wondering if I have more than an IMA battery issue, or maybe something else all together on my 2000 M/T Insight.

IMA light came on, code was 1447, continued driving w BCM still connected. 10 days later got the check engine light, additional code 1449 (assumed bad IMA battery). BUt 30 miles later I parked the car. 3 days later tried to starting it and even the remote entry will not
make a sound. The 12V is only about a year old.
Perhaps I misread but thought I should be able to drive further without having to disconnect the BCM.

Could the 12V be the culprit here, and could a bad 12V result in the above codes?
What about grounding issues?
If I jump the 12V is there anything to do differently from jumping a non-hybrid?

Also worth mentioning, I noticed the dashboard light in the vicinity of the A/C turn on switch to be intermittent, mostly off for the last several months. Also, always a slight electric shock touching someone outside the car (ie to pay a parking garage fee). I never connected this with the IMA battery but now wonder.

Would appreciate your feedback.

Kathie

 

[Eli]

The fact that the car was parked when the 12V battery died means it likely has nothing to do with the car's systems.

However, if the 12V battery light was on at any point before you parked it, that could have been a contributing factor to the 12V dying while sitting.

Jumping is the same as it is for any car. A bad 12V battery will not cause those codes.

Not sure on the climate control lights. Maybe a bad connection in the dash?

The shocks are just static electricity.

 

[redracer]

Thanks. I guess my point was that it should not have died after only several days and therefore maybe already in a weakened state when I parked it, but not bad enough for the red battery light to come on. I thought maybe driving with the IMA light on (but with BCM still connected) could have drawn power from the 12V.
After the IMA light came on I remember the dashboard lights dimming and brightening.

Is there ANYTHING else that code result in those codes besides a faulty IMA battery?
Faulty ground wire??
Dealer insists the BCM/MCM could be bad... although no other codes came on.

 

[Eli]

Yes, I agree, it shouldn't have. The Insight is notorious for maintaining the 12V battery at a low state of charge though. Also possible that you left the dome light on or something? Have you experienced a cold snap? That can also kill a weak 12V battery.

The 12V battery light will only come on if the DC-DC converter is not working. Seeing the dimming and brightening dash lights is the DC-DC operating, but the fact that they're noticeably dim when the DC-DC isn't on means that your 12V was probably pretty weak. The only time the car will operate exclusively from the 12V battery is if the red 12V battery light on the dash is illuminated.

No. There is nothing else that will cause those codes. Look on the bright side, your 12V battery dying has performed a reset on your systems. Enjoy the IMA-light-free driving until the problem pops up again. If you drive very conservatively, you may be able to stave the IMA light off for a couple of months..depending on how deteriorated your battery is.

The dealership is full of it, DO NOT replace your BCM and MCM. Unbelievable... It really makes me angry that they do that to people. It's like saying you need a new ECM because your check engine light is on.

 

[redracer]

Is the 12V still charging with a bad IMA battery still connected? I thought that was why the BCM should be disconnected... to be able to run off the 12V alone and prevent the red battery light from coming on. Someone please help me out here.

If I do want to bypass the IMA do I need to by a bypass board?

So 1447/1449 always mean the battery needs to be replaced? Thought I read somewhere it could be a ground wire problem??

 

[Eli]

The only time the 12V isn't charging is if the red 12V battery light on the dashboard is on.

If the IMA battery deteriorates to the point where the computers will not allow the DC-DC to run, then you need to disconnect the BCM. You know this has happened when the aforementioned red 12V battery symbol illuminates and stays illuminated even at low RPM. This does not happen immediately upon setting P1447/P1449 codes. Most people can drive for at least another ~8mo+ before the DC-DC is shut down.

If you want to disconnect the BCM preemptively, you can do so.

Ground straps can cause any number of issues, but P1447/P1449 shouldn't be amongst them. These codes arise when very specific conditions are met. If the computers weren't able to analyze said conditions properly, you would have other codes.

But like I said, it never hurts to check the ground straps. Just make sure they aren't broken or corroded and you should be good to go.

You only need a junction board("bypass board") if you wish to drive the car after physically removing the battery, like if you want to send it in for repair. You don't need to buy one though, the junction board is on your battery.

 

[redracer]

IMA light, 1447, CEL, broken ground straps, dead 12V

My saga continues but after reading some posts and wondering if I have more than an IMA battery issue, or maybe something else all together on my 2000 M/T Insight.

IMA light came on, code was 1447, continued driving w BCM still connected. 10 days later got the check engine light, additional code 1449 (assumed bad IMA battery). BUt 30 miles later I parked the car. 3 days later tried to starting it and even the remote entry will not
make a sound. The 12V is only about a year old.
Perhaps I misread but thought I should be able to drive further without having to disconnect the BCM.

Could the 12V be the culprit here, and could a bad 12V result in the above codes?
What about grounding issues?
If I jump the 12V is there anything to do differently from jumping a non-hybrid?

Also worth mentioning, I noticed the dashboard light in the vicinity of the A/C turn on switch to be intermittent, mostly off for the last several months. Also, always a slight electric shock touching someone outside the car (ie to pay a parking garage fee). I never connected this with the IMA battery but now wonder.

Would appreciate your feedback.

Kathie

Jump started the car and the IMA and check engine lights reset. The IMA light came back on after driving 10 miles, but check engine light came back on immediately. Had the battery checked at a nearby mechanic and found the 12V is not functioning correctly, but one of the ground straps is not attached and totally severed.

Could the bad 12V and unattached ground strap cause the IMA light/1447 code to come on and is it possible the IMA battery is not bad?

I actually noticed the severed ground strap a year ago but did not know what it was. No mechanic suggested fixing it.

 

[Vigo]

I have some info to share.

About two months ago my Insight IMA performance started deteriorating quickly. Within the space of a few hundred miles it went from occasionally doing something annoying to having no assist AND what seemed like constant background charging which, when it happened, actually made me a hazard on the roads because i was obstructing traffic whenever i had to go up a hill. I was on a road trip and had to keep going, but i got home.

So my IMA light was on and i had no IMA function. Checked the codes and had 1447 and 1449. Within a few days i lost my 12v charging and had to stop driving it.

I took the battery pack out, took it apart, and tested and charged every battery string. I did not find a single bad cell. They were just very out of balance.

I put it back together, drove about 5 miles getting inconsistent amounts of assist, and then the IMA light came back on. I havent had access to a scanner to check it yet (only been 2 days).

So i would say 2 things: 1. 1447 & 1449 does not necessarily mean your batteries are bad. None of mine are. and 2. It follows that other things besides bad batteries can set 1447 and 1449.

 

[Eli]

I have some info to share.

About two months ago my Insight IMA performance started deteriorating quickly. Within the space of a few hundred miles it went from occasionally doing something annoying to having no assist AND what seemed like constant background charging which, when it happened, actually made me a hazard on the roads because i was obstructing traffic whenever i had to go up a hill. I was on a road trip and had to keep going, but i got home.

So my IMA light was on and i had no IMA function. Checked the codes and had 1447 and 1449. Within a few days i lost my 12v charging and had to stop driving it.

I took the battery pack out, took it apart, and tested and charged every battery string. I did not find a single bad cell. They were just very out of balance.

I put it back together, drove about 5 miles getting inconsistent amounts of assist, and then the IMA light came back on. I havent had access to a scanner to check it yet (only been 2 days).

So i would say 2 things: 1. 1447 & 1449 does not necessarily mean your batteries are bad. None of mine are. and 2. It follows that other things besides bad batteries can set 1447 and 1449.

With all due respect, your post makes no sense and you are going to do nothig but confuse the issue for this poor woman.

If your IMA light came back after you rebalanced the pack, you most certainly have bad cells/sticks. At what amperage rate did you perform your tests? Ron has said time and time again that he can show sticks that seem fine at low amperage discharges but take a crap at high rates of discharge. Remember that our cars can charge at up to 50A and discharge at over 90A.

P1447-77 and P1449-78 are set under very specific conditions. There is nothing else that will set these DTCs.

It seems to me that high internal resistance is the cause of failure of a lot of packs. That seems to be the case with the deteriorated pack in Insight #3. The high internal resistance of the cells causes voltage to climb abnormally, throwing the IMA light.

If I charge the pack in #3 at less than 6A, it will charge readily, nearly to the top, without throwing an IMA light. If I charge the pack at 12-16A+, the systems see the abnormal voltage spike and the IMA light is thrown.

 

[Vigo]

I am not contesting the conditions that produce the codes. I am only saying that just because you have the codes does not mean your batteries are necessarily bad. In other words, i am only saying the same thing that everyone who says 'try a grid charger' has said without raising any ire.

I dont know what codes i currently have set. I will check it soon. It is possible that the same codes have set, but i think it is also possible that some other code has set which will trip the IMA light.

Internal resistance across the entire pack cant tell you anything unless you know that the pack is perfectly in balance, because the resistance across each cell is relative to its state of charge. The highest resistance is from a cell that is fully charged.

 

[Eli]

I am not contesting the conditions that produce the codes. I am only saying that just because you have the codes does not mean your batteries are necessarily bad. In other words, i am only saying the same thing that everyone who says 'try a grid charger' has said without raising any ire.

I dont know what codes i currently have set. I will check it soon. It is possible that the same codes have set, but i think it is also possible that some other code has set which will trip the IMA light.

Internal resistance across the entire pack cant tell you anything unless you know that the pack is perfectly in balance, because the resistance across each cell is relative to its state of charge.

What does it mean, then?

A grid charger isn't a magical fix. It doesn't fix bad cells, and it doesn't fix high internal resistance. I am testing grid charging with the weak pack in #3, and it's definitely no miracle cure. It has extended the useable life of the pack(with babying), but it still throws the IMA light under heavy regen because of the pack's high internal resistance. If you avoid the negative recal, you can avoid the IMA light on the charge cycle.

I am not sure what you mean by your last paragraph. Can you elaborate a little? I don't claim to be a battery chemist or anything, I'm just going off of my fairly extensive testing of a P1447 and P1449 throwing battery pack.

I witnessed the same behavior last weekend when I helped someone with their car. We performed several resets in a row just so they could have some assist on their trip home. Even at the meager 6A of background charge, the pack voltage shot up from ~155V to ~180V, causing a positive recalibration after a short period of time.

A normal, healthy pack sees a relatively small voltage spike under regen, in comparison. Likewise, due to the high internal resistance, high rates of discharge cause the pack to dip below 120V, which has the effect of the systems lowering the discharge rate.

 

[Vigo]

Well, you mentioned 1449-78.

But there are also -72, 73, and 74, and according to those DTC definitions i think they could all be caused by imbalance issues. I dont know what definition Autozone hands out for 1449, but it is possible in some cases that it is only a balance problem. That's how i see it, but practical experience may prove it to be false. I have limited experience working on only one insight over only one year.

Can you elaborate a little? I don't claim to be a battery chemist or anything, I'm just going off of my fairly extensive testing of a P1447 and P1449 throwing battery pack.

Well, let's say you take out a battery string and charge it on a charger that has a selectable voltage limit. You set the voltage limit to whatever you think the finish voltage should be, and the current is unregulated (or the charger isnt regulating it). In that situation the thing controlling how much current goes into the battery is the resistance across the battery (ohms law). As the battery charges, the current going into it will fall off, and if you dont have the voltage limit set too high, the current will eventually drop to near 0. The resistance across the battery is what is controlling that current flow, and it gets higher as the battery is charged up.

So, since the whole pack is connected in series, let's say you are trying to put 6a through the whole pack. If there is one or more cells in the pack that are close to full, and the rest are lower (pack out of balance), the cells that are full are going to turn that 6a into heat..possibly setting a 1449-72 or -73 which are temperature-related codes reading the PTCs on the batteries.

This is just based on my limited understanding of batteries, and reading the DTC definitions. I could be wrong.

 

[Eli]

Ahh, I see what you were saying. Yes, it is confusing that there can be different P1449 subcodes.

I was only speaking for P1449-78, which is what many/most P1449s will be in my experience. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen anyone post about one of the other subcodes in a long time. Betting dollars to donuts that your new code will be P1447-77 or P1449-78. They're by far the most common.

Check out these two graphs for a comparison of a regen curve. One threw an IMA light, the other did not.

Car #3 Mountain Run #1 - Full Assist - Regen Volts, Temp, State of Charge, Amps

Car #3 Pack Whack Run #3 - Regen Volts, Temp, State of Charge, Amps

Can you guess which one didn't throw the IMA light?

The car seems very sensitive to the rate of voltage change. Notice how the voltage spikes to over 180V under ~35A of regen at the beginning of the first graph, and doesn't fall back down. This doesn't happen with a normal, healthy, low internal resistance pack at such a low state of charge. The rapid rate of voltage change with very little amp hour input is what causes the P1449-78 to be thrown.

This same type of behavior is the same thing that Uhtrinity found with his well used parallel packs. High internal resistance causes the voltage to spike abnormally high under heavy regen, and abnormally low under heavy assist.

It's under regen after a negative recalibration that the IMA lights are thrown.

For comparison, here's what a healthy stock pack looks like:

Mountain Run #8 - Full Assist #1 - Regen Volts, Temp, SoC, Amps

Notice that at the beginning, even under ~48A of regen, the pack's voltage only spikes to 168V.

 

[Vigo]

I dont see the definition for 1449-77 in the pdfs.. do you have it?

How are you generating those logs? I see what you are referring to. I'd like to be able to do something like that with my Insight for diagnostic purposes.

I will ask the people i know about high resistance and battery voltage rising faster it is actually charging. I am guessing the voltage itself is a symptom of something else the battery controller is monitoring, and it's asking the motor/generator to create that voltage to push current into the pack. The pack voltage cant suddenly spike higher than the charging voltage, so the batteries themselves are not creating that high voltage spike except perhaps by making the motor or battery controller ask for it based on some other input or value.

 

[Eli]

P1447-77 should be in there somewhere.. I'll have to look when I get home.

The logs are generated with the BCM Gauge that Peter created.

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...ues/17481-bcm-gauge-battery-data-display.html

The voltage is the battery pack's voltage, not the MDM voltage. You are correct, the MDM voltage is always higher than the battery pack voltage during regen. It must be in order to push current into the pack. But a battery has the effect of clamping the voltage source to the battery's voltage, with a corresponding increase in amperage. As the source voltage and battery voltage become equal, current falls to zero.. which is what you referenced above.

The pack's voltage increase is caused by current being pumped into the pack. The level of voltage change in relation to current is due to the batteries internal resistance I believe. I'm a little fuzzy on this. Basically, it's a measure of how well the battery is absorbing the charge. High internal resistance causes the charge absorbtion to be less efficient, and the voltage rises more? Something like that. You can see the profound difference in the healthy pack. The Better Battery has even lower internal resistance, and sees even less voltage swings:

BetterBattery Regen Run #2

The Insight's systems aren't just a regular battery charger though, so it's not really comparable to a constant voltage/constant current source. I understand what you're saying, but that's not the case here. Though to be honest, I don't know a whole lot about how the MDM works. Maybe check this thread out, I need to read through it again:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/16206-inside-mdm-more-power.html

I wish I knew more about motor controllers and how assist/regen works in the Insight. All I really know is that the assist/regen commands are PWM based.. lol.

Here's the thread with all of my data:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...n-discussion/19829-data-logging-oem-pack.html

The BCM Gauge has been a HUGE Insight into how the car's systems work. I think it's just as cool as MIMA, but for different reasons.

You'll want to keep an eye on the OBDII Gauge thread, as it is essentially the next iteration of the BCM Gauge.. and oh so much more.

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/20488-obdiic-c-gauge.html

 

[redracer]

P1449/IMA light/P1445/red battery and brake light!

My IMA battery is still connected but while driving both the red 12V battery light AND brake lights came on. After turning the ignition off and restarting they went out. I drove another 40 miles and same thing happened (both red battery and brake light came on at the same time while the car was moving). Now when I restart the car makes a noise as though it is 'turning over' and the car vibrates. One time when I turned the ignition I only heard humming. It always it would start up right away without noise. Oh, IMA charge went from full to 1 bar where it has been for days.

What could be causing this?? Strange the brake light went on too (new brakes 6 months ago).

 

[Eli]

The IMA battery fault is causing it. Your IMA battery has deteriorated to the point that the DC-DC converter isn't being allowed to operate. This is normal.

I am not sure why the brake light comes on when the 12V battery light does, but that is normal and has nothing to do with your brakes.

Starting with the auxiliary 12V starter is also normal under these circumstances.

In order to continue driving the car, you will have to disconnect the three BCM connectors. This stops the car from shutting the DC-DC converter down, allowing your 12V battery to remain charged. Or replace the IMA battery.

 

[joecvt]

The IMA battery fault is causing it. Your IMA battery has deteriorated to the point that the DC-DC converter isn't being allowed to operate. This is normal.

I am not sure why the brake light comes on when the 12V battery light does, but that is normal and has nothing to do with your brakes.

It is actually in the wiring / electronics manual showing that the DC-DC converter will light up the brake indicator when there is a problem. Not only does the brake indicator show when there is a brake problem or parking brake engaged, it will also illuminate with a wire from the DC-DC converter with a diode in place. Strange Honda design but it is in the manual showing it to be wired that way.....I guess it shows a shortcut hint to Honda to look at a DC-DC converter problem.

Hope that helps,
JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner

 

[Vigo]

After unplugging the BCM it's also normal for those same lights to come on any time you exceed 4k rpm, and stay on for about 30sec after dropping below that rpm.

On the plus side, your mileage might go up after disconnecting the bcm. I got 6mpg out of it, since it wasn't constantly dumping engine power into the bottomless pit that is a non-functional battery pack.

 

[00 insight]

I have a 2000 insight with the same IMA problem. Could you please tell me exactly where the three BCM connectors are located? Thanks.