[romeopapa]

Hello All.

I live in Oakland Ca, and have a 2000 Citrus Yellow with 90k miles. My battery started to really suffer at about 84k. A couple of recals per week, and I'd run a full battery down to two bars on a long freeway onramp.

So, I was stoked when I got my warrenty extension letter from Honda. My insight went to the shop and got both control modules replaced, but NO battery pack. My IMA light has never come on. The bummer is that since I got the new modules, my lifetime average of 58.5 is in danger. I can drive carefully now and get 60+ miles on a tank, but since the module 'upgrade' its all that I can do to struggle with 50mpg. With the current state of my battery pack, the car is driving in a 'forced charge' situation about 1/2 the time.

Surprisingly, before I could call Honda America, the dealer called me out of the blue 2 weeks after doing the control modules.....asking, "is everything o.k.". I said, no, and told them my situation, and that I felt stuck waiting for an IMA light to come on for a new battery. The service person said, "we don't need an IMA light to replace your battery pack, so lets go you starte on ordering one'. I said GREAT!.

The next week, the dealer called for me to bring it in. However, once there, confusion arose...Honda Techline said that they had no extra batteries online, and if there was no IMA light, no dice. [the car will charge, hold a charge, not overcharge] So, off I went with a false hopes dashed, along with some wasted time of taking the car and leaving with dealer.

So, I called Honda America. They created a case number, called back a week later and said very sweetly, "no battery". The she gave me some line about how the car may learn new control module behavior and mpg may improve over the next six months. What?

so, I'm stuck with crappy mpg dragging down my LTA, a gimpy battery that is often in forced charge and almost daily recal events. Its making not want to drive the car at all....and spend more time in my biodiesel truck. Sadly, none of my toyota hybrid friends are having any problems to point to.

Gee Honda, thanks for slapping new control modules on my car to 'save' my battery from deteriorating after it already is. Now i'm stuck with it.

I want my old control modules back!

Anyone else with the same problem?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Re: IMA - New Control Modules - MPG down 15% - Honda USA [l

What's been proven in regard to the IMA system and MPGs that little or no IMA usage is required. For specific terrain, driving styles, and MPG range its possible that IMA assist helps MPG some. Especially in the city drive cycle.

Its your forced charge events not the different programming that is most likely the cause. Try the headlights on trick yet :?: Yup its that simple just turn'em on. Give it several _days_ of "normal" driving to see the possible difference.

As a Californian your IMA batteries are under the new warranty extension 10 years, 150,000 miles. But until the IMA code of "death" your simply gonna have to live with older / weaker than new batteries. We'll _all_ get to the same spot one way or another. Even the Toyota Prius.

Sincerely,

 

[romeopapa]

um yeah, I understand.

I wasn't claiming that the 'programming' itself is dragging my mileage down. Nor that lack of assist itself was killing me. Its precisely becuase the new modules keep the car in a state of forced-charge perhaps 40-50% of the time vs. 10% of the time before I took the car in for warrenty recall.

since having my car back from my BCU/ECU swap i have never seen a full SOC. The car ranges from two bars to ten, with the same commute loop and driving conditions as before [actually, i'm trying harder than before to high-mile becuase of the problem]. As a result, the car is always dragging and forced-charging.

I have already tried the 'headlight trick' for almost a week with no real change. What I haven't done is pull the fuse and let it idle and do a complete charge. While great for troubleshooting, the result is throwing emissions into the air while the car is standing still. ...Not something that i'm eager to do. Esp. since i know what the issue is......I have a degraded battery. It apparently just has to get more degraded and throw an IMA light before the pack is replaced.

so, for fun, i'll pull the fuse later today and charge it all the way up. if anything changes, i'll post again.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Hi romeopappa,

An IMA reset may be the key. And you don't have to rev the engine up in the driveway to do it. Just combine it with a needed trip somewhere. And be ready for the resulting forced charge and little or no available IMA assist for the first few miles.

TO ALL OTHER MEMBERS:

IC does not wish to host information regarding "how-to" (possibly :doubt: ) "obtain" warranty. See the rules:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42
(specifically #6 by direct inference)

Such posts will be removed.

Sincerely,

 

[adamwilt]

My results are similar to yours: 87.5k on a 2000 MT, batteries a bit on the weak side. Recals every couple of hundred miles, but aside from that, OK. I'm across the bay, in Mountain View / Sunnyvale.

Got the IMA recall handled last Friday (2006.07.21). I was getting 68 mpg on the tank and climbing when I dropped off the car, with SOC 5/6 full. After pickup, SOC was still around 5/6, but dropped rapidly to 1/2 over the next ten miles and has varied between four bars and 1/2 full ever since, with forced charging perhaps 80% of the time. It seems the SOC depletes much more readily than before, and charging is slower / less effective.

Until Tuesday I was using A/C, so it's difficult to compare exactly just yet (I normally don't use the cooler), but I'm finding it hard to get decent mileage. On a 14 mile round trip to/from work, no A/C, I'm seeing about 58-59 mpg where I'd expect to be seeing about 10-15% better. With A/C off and when forced charge stops, the car behaves normally in terms of performance, lean burn, etc., but with forced charge on, it's often hard to get above 50 mpg even on the flats at 35 mph (!).

The headlights-on trick, so far, hasn't made a noticeable difference.

WWDC (Apple developer conference) is in SF two weeks hence so I'll get some proper highway travel in then, and see if that helps.

 

[minako]

I would be very surprised if you hadn't used A/C the past few days. This heat wave was terrible, wasn't it? It lasted for like... 12 days.

 

[rsouthern]

I had the same concerns, my average mileage was around 65/tank, but after the module recall, I saw a decrease in mileage, down to mid 50s. That was about 2 months ago. I noticed over the past few days that the mileage seems to be coming back up (turning off the AC is also helping!). I managed 78mpg today, whereas last week I could only manage 70mpg, and after the module change I couldn't get any getter than 65mpg. Same commute, same traffic patterns. So I think that there may be some truth to the "module adapting" argument.

To play it safe, if I were in your shoes, I'd call the dealer who did the recall, let them know of the problem and get the problem and date recorded in case you need to do anything later. Then drive the car for a few more weeks and see if the mileage goes back to your previous values.

 

[dfiore]

replacing modules

I just replaced both modules last night. Took me about an hour and a half. Just like working on a big laser printer, except a lot more current. Very simple. No real problems. Now we'll see if my mileage goes up. Oh yeah, they came from a 2000 with 40k miles for $275!

 

[Rick]

Hmm, it is starting to sound like the replacement BCM/MCM makes the car behave a lot like my 06 HCH. Lots of force charging happening all the time, and I'm betting lots of behind the scenes diagnostic stuff happening. It seems though that a lot of people who have had the replacement done have complained of mileage dropping, both here and on the yahoo group. I think in the case where a module is replaced it stays at the dealership pars department for a certain period of time and then goes back to Honda. If you complain enough you might be able to get them to put your old modules back in, but they will want to eventually order you another set and try it again.

*Should also mention that the modules Dfiore got were out of a junk yard and are not the same program you'd get from the product update modules from Honda.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

*Should also mention that the modules Dfiore got were out of a junk yard and are not the same program you'd get from the product update modules from Honda.

In fact unless they were updated (you'd have to check the PN's) then their the "first" generation control programs. AFAIK the Insight is on at least the 3rd major revision of IMA battery control.

Ok now you want to know the PN's :?: Don't have the newest but the numbers for the others can be found in my reply here:

Worst fear has come true.
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... 7&start=45

HTH!

 

[romeopapa]

mpg coming back up a bit

I wanted to repost now over a week later to say that there really may be something to the 'relearning' thing post module swap.

While I was barely able to keep the car about 50mpg just after having my control modules replaced last month, I am now on a new tank and the mpg has been slowly coming back up. [i'm not using the a/c]. this tank is still over 60mpg after a couple hundred miles, and is on its way up. I was averaging low 60's before [I'm second owner of car and we've pulled the LMPG up to 58.5 from 55 over the last year or so], and this tank is currently at 61.1, [although i'm driving more carefully]. In fact, the way i'm driving i still feel this should be about a 64-65 tank, so i'd prefer to see it climb some more.

The car still drives around in forced charge about 50-60% of the time, although I have been able to get almost full bars SOC a couple of times.

Just living with the weak battery and waiting for my IMA light to appear.

 

[figgy]

Holding off for those reasons

I have not done any upgrades yet for fear of what you describe.

One figures that an easy way to keep the battery from never being full is to always keep it no more than half full, so in effect you are driving around with a much smaller battery store but all the weight still in residence.

I am skeptical that it takes hundreds of miles for the BCM to adjust, since if you pull the plug (remove battery or fuses) and reset the computer normally then it doesn't show that kind of big delay in getting good mpg.

Has anyone checked this on a test track under controlled circumstances?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Hi figgy and welcome back :!:

The "time" factor is in the NiMH's battery chemistry, the "memory" effect. Yes, NiMH chemistry is more memory resistant than its "cousin" NiCAD, but its not zero. And given the _many_ variables in individual driving patterns a multi-month time factor is probable.

HTH !

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

Hi guys
Just ran across this thread, and may have a theory?
Lets say that Honda wants to know what is really going on with these batteries (finally), and has decided that their future in the hybrid car business will depend on how they handle the eventual failure of battery packs.
They get the software guys to work on a new program for the pack management, which will be “ smarter” than the old software, it tries to learn how to better manage the battery based on your use of the pack, like the prius software seems to do. It would take some time for it to learn the battery usage and to make gradual changes to the control scheme.

They may change modules on cars with recal complaints as a way to better understand how to manage the pack, or possibly even to avoid the IMA light coming on with anything less than a total pack failure? No way to really know, but be sure that Honda is watching and controlling all IMA battery pack replacements done under warranty, and they have reasons for everything they do. They know that an important concern with any hybrid buyer is, will the battery packpack fail before they are done with the car, and how long is the battery warranty.
Of course as the consumers we are kept in the dark as to the reasons, so we can only speculate.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Indeed it could be reasonably assumed that there is some type of knowledge base being built given that the 10/150K warranty extension has 2 different approaches depending on your state of residence. (IMO a good thing)

Test group "A" gets the new controllers before any IMA battery code of death.

Group "B" must wait for any warranty consideration until the pack finally craps out.

See:

US IMA warranty 10 year extension UPDATED to all 50 states!
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=4796