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Discussion Starter #1
I made it up to 50,000 miles in my 2000 Insight just having the O2 sensor issue. Then at about 50,500 miles, the dashboard lit up like a christmas tree. The battery was not engaging! So I take it to the dealership, being under warrenty and all, I had two sensors that were burned out. So they were replaced. It was a little hassle, but the car continued running, but like a Geo not an Insight. Got the sensors replaced, all was well. So I thought that would be that.

Well apparently not. At about 55,000 miles (read this morning), the IMA light came back on with the check engine light, like before and once again the battery is not engaging at all. The Insight has once again become a Geo. I tried doing a search for previous threads, but I couldn't find one regarding this issue. Can someone either point me in the direction of such a thread or give help otherwise. There hadn't seemed to be any precursor to the warning lights. In both instances, they first came on when I turn on the car. I have not had charging issues. My battery is usually full.
 

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IMA system is under warranty for 8 years and 80,000 miles. Take it back in and demand free repairs.
 

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So what you are saying is that you got both an IMA light and a check engine light at the same time?

Sounds like a bad "controler" for the battery.
If my memory hasn't failed me, I believe there were a few replaced on the 2000 model year.

What is the "trouble codes" that the service tech read. Always get that information, it helps everyone.

Never "DEMAND", wow them with your knowledge of the Insight.

Be firm, warranty should be valid, it's part of the "emissions system".
 

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The only time I had both light On was with the "Engine/Transmission to Ground" broken wires.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well, on my trip home from work, the same day, only the Check Engine light popped on. So the battery was fine, and the car has continued being alright, except the Check Engine light being on. The guy at the dealership says its popping up a code P042. He notes that it is not the same code from when I needed to get two sensors replaced, and the people at the dealership right now are befuddled as to the problem.
 

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Codes "glitch" for many reasons. Step 1 record then clear the codes. If the code(s) don't recur in a reasonable period of time, then it was most likely a glitch.

A P042 is not a valid OBDII code. A P0420 is a bad CAT (catalyst). There is a procedure whereby the primary and secondary o2 sensor cross counts are compared by observing a graph of or counting their cycles to determine if the CAT has failed. Usually a 20 mile highway drive is all that's needed before a PO420 will recur.


An IMA code 42 which is not preceded by a "P0" is an IMA motor commutation signal problem, a potential head scratcher.

Please keep the group informed in this thread. :)

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Okay, so this thread got away from me. Your point is? :D

I love my Insight... really I do. 64.3 mpg lifetime over 80,000+ miles, but this problem is killing me. It's been the only problem, but very consistent.

A review.

At about 13,000 miles the first O2 sensor goes. They replace the "three ECM units", please excuse me but I'm not very well versed in my car's inner parts.

I believe it goes again between 13,000 and 50,000.

At 50,000 the dashboard lights up like a christmas tree. IMA light goes off, oy vei! This leads to the Motor Control Module and Motot Commutation Sensor being replaced, a $1700+ operation! I pay $0.

Then at 56,000 check engine light off again... which leads to this thread.

Then at 70,000 check engine light on again! Replace Control Unit... again.

Then at 72,000 check engine light makes it's presense known. Also the IMA light is going off almost every other drive. I get a bit more demanding at Honda, I've had enough of the band-aid solutions. Communtation sensor and "W-sensor LAF" are replaced.

Now at about 82,000 the Christmas Tree lighting of the dashboard occurs again. And now they really don't have a clue because the solution they are supposed to use, has already been done... twice!

Now, I'm not an engineer or anything... well, actually I am an engineer (though only a civil), but that is besides the point, but my mind is telling me that there is an inherent flaw in this car... not the model of the car, but in the one I'm driving. Something wasn't built right. Sadly, my warranty (yeah, I went extended!), will be up in less than 20,000 miles. Replacing the Communication and Oxygen sensors will not solve this problem. Luckily to date, I've paid very little out of pocket. But in 20,000 miles, it won't stay that way. And honestly, I'm not in much of a mood to accept the fact that a problem that has never been fixed will now be out of warranty, seeing I never got 100,000 miles out of it in the first place.

So I come pleading to the wise Insight folks, is this problem familiar to anyone? I'm relatively light on my car. 82,000 miles over 5 years, I rarely use up the battery, I don't go racing around in it.
 

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Thanks for your trouble in keeping this in the same thread :!: :D

Have you clearly outlined the vehicles _complete_code history for a better informed reply :?: Just because a warning light comes on doesn't necessairly mean its the same problem or going to be an expensive fix.

Two different approaches come to mind:

1. The problem has not been fixed by throwing parts at it. Find a knowledgeable shop that will fix it. If it is a recurring IMA code 42, it won't be easy to fix. :(

2. Find out about your states lemon law and pursue a manufacturer buy-back. Your situation is unusual. Unfortunately there are times in the mass production of anything such that everything that could go wrong, does. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I think I'll try to obtain a history of the car codes from the dealership. Right now I only have the print outs.

What I do know for a fact is that the problem they are trying to fix now, has the same solution as to what they did back at 50,000 miles. I know at 50,000 I was very suspect regarding how the O2 sensor being always the problem. This latest issue is confirming my idea that there is a much deeper underlying problem, one that I am theorizing that may not be fixable. That it'd be easier to just get another car, because otherwise, they'd have to deconstruct then reconstruct the vehicle.

I was pondering about Lemon Laws, sadly I'm in Ohio so I don't have much hope, but I'll check out the statutes.
 

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Back to a possible fix then:

Your first O2 sensor issue was a manufacturing error (2000 model year) and would have been cured withe the ECM update (replacement). Required not because of an internal faulire, but a programming one.

If your dealing with recurring O2 sensor codes and not an O2 sub code of its heater malfunctioning then you may be poisioning your sensors with too much sulphur. Call your regional fuel distributors to get the sulphur content and buy the brand with the lowest.

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
1603 – Check Engine light went off. Code DTC P1164. “Test revealed a intermitten DTC” Cleared code, told to drive and see if light comes on again.

3000 – Check engine light reappears. “Cause: Faulty O2 Sensor” Replaced O2 sensor.

9700 – Check engine light on again. “Pulled P1164 O2 Sensor”. O2 sensor replaced again.

13000 – Check engine light on again. “Cause: Faulty control module” ‘The tech replaced all three ECM units’

51000 – Check engine and IMA light go off, see the Xmas Tree lighting on the dashboard. “Replaced Motor Control Module, and Motor Commutation Sensor”

51300 – Car has fault code #P042

61000 – Check engine light pops off again. “Found intermitant communication failure tech cleared code.”

68000 – Check engine light on again. “Ordered control unit”

70000 – Check engine light on again. “Verified concern. Found codes for IMA system failure and oxygen sensor failure-sensor one. Replaced commutation sensor and oxygen sensor.”

82000 – Same problem as at 51,000 and 70,000.

This is everything I got from the dealership. Hindsight tells me I should have asked for more details at the time. Of course, at the time, I assumed these problems wouldn’t continue to come up.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Insightful Trekker said:
Back to a possible fix then:

Your first O2 sensor issue was a manufacturing error (2000 model year) and would have been cured withe the ECM update (replacement). Required not because of an internal faulire, but a programming one.

If your dealing with recurring O2 sensor codes and not an O2 sub code of its heater malfunctioning then you may be poisioning your sensors with too much sulphur. Call your regional fuel distributors to get the sulphur content and buy the brand with the lowest.

HTH! :)
I can understand that idea. Would that lead to an IMA sensor issue though?
 

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Jimmy,

Unfortunately your vehicle's history is too vague to venture an educated guess. :( At a _minimum_ the specific code for each event should have been recorded. And for any type of recurring code problem the freeze frame data can be important too :!:

The IMA commutator signal problem, if it dosen't recur is apparently fixed. The sloppiness of the recorded history is in line with their repair "technique" and I more than suspect its part of your overall problem.

Personally if I were you I'd find a better repair shop.

AFAIK (and its a bit of a "research" job) an O2 code and an IMA code 42 (IMA commutator) have nothing in common. But did you ever have the main engine ground strap locations cleaned :?: Its an "easy" DIY project.

See:

http://community.webshots.com/user/jackmpg

For a pictorial how-to. (and send your thanks to JackMPG for his trouble in putting such together for us :) )


Resist,

If your gonna "revive" a 2 year old post to _incorrectly_ update the information then expect future deletions of such without further notice :|

The new extended warranty it limited to certian states.

See:

US IMA warranty extension
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=4796

Sincerely,
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Unless they have more information somewhere, that is the extent of the data they have on my car. I was a bit surprised that they didn't have the codes on the sheets. Oddly enough, performance of the car hasn't really deteriorated. My summer mileage last year wasn't what I wanted it to be, but otherwise, the car's performance, other than losing the battery has been good.

Editted: To remove some needless information
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I talked with the dealership about the car the other day. I brought up the sulfur issue with the gasoline and he said that such a thing could account for the O2 sensor going out, however, it would not account for the commutation sensor. I've done a search on the commutation sensor and got virtually nothing from the WWW. So I can't even hazard a guess.

Right now they are stripping the car, measuring everything to see if their is a misalignment somewhere. I'm told they are in contact with Honda and following their orders on the car. If this is the case, I don't know if taking the car elsewhere could produce better results. If Honda can't fix it... who in the world could?

I've been driving a really nice Mazda 6, which has gotten me some appreciable mileage for it's type of car, but nothing like the Insight. So if it takes them a while to fix the car, then I can live with that, though the gas price has become a bit of a stickier point for me in the 30 mpg car I'm in now. Personally, I think I'm stuck in this situation with few options. I'm just not sure what Honda is going to say if they can't fix it. Honestly, I don't know if it can be fixed.
 

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JimmyHiggins said:
I talked with the dealership about the car the other day. I brought up the sulfur issue with the gasoline and he said that such a thing could account for the O2 sensor going out, however, it would not account for the commutation sensor.
I would agree. But there are rare possibilities of wire harness damage. Should the O2 sensor and a commutator sensor share some common segment of a harness, IMO a look-see there is indicated at this point in your situation.

Let's hope for the best :!: :)

Sincerely,
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Just got a call from the dealership, and I liked what I heard. They removed the aluminum shield from the battery in the car and noticed a whole bunch of corrosion! That's a bad thing, usually that deep in the car. Most importantly, it would seem to also go in line with the history of my car. It taking about 50,000 miles to first manifest itself and then while they kept on replacing sensors which were being destroyed, the underlying cause of their destruction went unnoticed and consequently, the new sensors would die about every 10,000 miles.

As I suspected, it was an internal, physical problem with the car, as the seal around the shield was letting in enough moisture to do damage. And this would really fit in with my car's problems. So this fix will hopefully fix the car and not act as a bandage like the previous fixes. And with this discovery, I'll be able to continue driving my Insight, hopefully for atleast 5 more years. This is potentially great news! :D
 
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