[stoner]

Hello. I'm new here, contemplating an Insight.

I'm just wondering what European diesels would match up to the Insight's MPG and performance?

 

[Tim Maddux]

If you are in Europe, there is the VW 3L Lupo. If you are in the U.S., then your only alternatives are the VW diesels like the Golf and New Beetle, which get EPA combined estimates in the high 40's and not the low 60's like the Insight.

More info:
http://www.insightcentral.net/KB/compar ... e-tdi.html

 

[boogetyboogety]

Also consider...

Yes, Diesels are more fuel-efficient than most gasoline cars. The Insight, however, is the most fuel-efficient gasoline-powered car available here in the US and perhaps the world.

But quality-wise, I believe the Honda will draw fewer coins from your purse than the VW products in the long run. Yes, you may read of some glitches in the new technology used in the Insight, but overall, a Honda is a Honda is an anvil. VWs can't quite reach that kind of overall reliability and quality control (I speak from long-time experience)... :x

And also, more stations sell gasoline that gasoline-and-diesel, so you have greater choices in refueling your vehicle.

The 30,000-foot-view from here is, miles and years down the road, you may be happier with the Insight if economy is your goal. Plus the car is unique, unlike the ubiquitous VWs that are everywhere. You won't see yourself coming and going... :wink:

 

[Guest]

Hi Stoner:

___Are you located in Europe? If so, the 2.2 L iCDTi in the new Honda Accord Saloon would be a very interesting alternative albeit in a much larger and faster automobile while receiving a bit less fuel economy. When this diesel was first released to the public, it really turned some heads in the performance as well as minimalist NVH arena’s …

Honda Diesel sets new world records

___Imagine what an in house Honda designed 1.0 L iCDTi would do in our little beauties

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2pec18se][email protected][/email:2pec18se]

 

[stoner]

Yes I live in the UK, where diesel cars are very popular due to our high fuel prices.

Please excuse me, I seem to have got confused with fuel consumption figures:
I've seen what appears to be US figures of 63 mpg, but it seems the UK figures are 83 mpg -
That's a bit more like it - most mid size diesels (Civic included!) will average out 50-60 mpg, so I was wondering what all the fuss is about, I guess US and UK gallons are different. I'm surpised there are so few Insights over here, I don't think I've ever seen one on the road!

The Accord iCDTi looks impressive - a few years untill I would be willing to part cash for one though.

 

[Madeline]

I was thinking on similar lines earlier this year when I was looking into buying a car... I eventually based my decision on overall environmental goodness. Diesel cars are actually pretty crummy, no matter what gas mileage they get... They create much more soot and sulphur and such, whereas the Insight (CVT, California version) is perhaps the best possible car for least pollution. See the above 40 mpg cars compared here: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm

The other considerations for me broke down thus:
VW diesel:
-More space
-Can use biodiesel

Insight:
-Looks far cooler
-Made of aluminum: no rusting worries
-Biodiesel (so far as I could tell) would have to be something I bought by the barrel, stored in my house somewhere, and carried out to the car when I needed to fill it. Even in the Bay Area no gas station carries it.

 

[Tim Maddux]

I've seen what appears to be US figures of 63 mpg, but it seems the UK figures are 83 mpg

2 reasons.

First, as you suspected, the UK uses Imperial gallons, which are 20% larger than the gallons used in the U.S. For reference 1 gallon (Imperial/UK) = 0.1605 ft^3 and 1 gallon (US) = 0.1337 ft^3.

Second, the UK mpg test is not the same as the US EPA mpg test. The "extra urban" cycle used by the UK nets about 5% better mileage on the same vehicle than the "highway" cycle used by the US EPA, even after you account for the different gallon sizes.

more detail here and here and here.

 

[Billy]

In Europe my choice would be the Audi A2 3L (less than 3 Liters of fuel burn per 100 kilometers) It is a 3 cylinder diesel, and all things being equal, can beat the Insight by about 5 mpg. It is not as sleek and good looking, but I sure with they would import them to North America. Billy....

 

[clett]

In terms of outright thermal efficiency of an internal combustion engine, you just can't beat raw compression ratio! The Insight is fuel efficient because of it's light weight aluminium construction, good aerodynamics and hybrid assist. However, because it runs on petrol the compression ratio of the engine is only 10.8:1, so the outright thermal efficiency of the engine is nothing special, being limited to only around 30%. (ie 30% of the chemical energy in the fuel is turned into motive power).

A diesel, on the other hand, can have a compression ratio of over 20:1. The longer the expansion stroke, the cooler the gases are in the exhaust, and the more energy from the fuel has been used to push the piston. It's mainly for this reason that a bog standard VAG TDi engine can hit 42% efficiency. Also, a diesel engine can run at high efficiency for much of the time, while a petrol engine only hits peak efficiency at full throttle.

But the main bonus of the diesel engine is that once the black stuff runs out (or becomes a little expensive) you can switch to running on carbon neutral SVO with only minor modifications required.

So when the petrol cars are still depending on this:

http://mirrorimageorigin.collegepublisher.com/media/paper344/stills/0ht60z23.jpg

The diesel cars can instead be depending on this!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.barker4/archive/index/oilseed3.jpg

8)

 

[ethicalpaul]

I have a '99 TDI beetle and it's very nice. If I could choose fresh from today, I'd rather have an Insight, but I have no kids, either, so the 2 seat thing is not a problem for me as it would be for so many others. I do like to haul crap sometimes and the beetle has a ton of stow space in it believe it or not.

Already having a car that gets 47 without even trying, it is hard for me to justify trading it in on something new. I think I'll see what comes out in 2005.

Finally, regarding reliability, my VW has been great, only needing a relay and a couple glow plugs in addition to the regular servicable items. I've got 142,000 miles on it and it is doing a great job.

 

[Guest]

...whereas the Insight (CVT, California version) is perhaps the best possible car for least pollution.

There is no "California version". California has low sulfur gasoline everywhere, whilst in the rest of the country low sulfur is only available in a few larger markets (such as Ammoco Ultimate at BP in Indianapolis).

I was at a Honda dealership a couple weeks ago and was looking at some stickers on new Hondas and noticed that 2004 Civic EX's and Civic Hybrids are both ULEV, which is what the Insight is when running low sulfur fuel. Interesting.

 

[Tim Maddux]

You're right about the regular Civics, but Honda Civic Hybrid gets a 10/10 on the EPA score, which is equivalent to the "SULEV II" designation, in Sales Area 7.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001cart ... p?id=19588

BP/Amoco ran a commercial the other night touting their gas but it appears to be limited to Indiana, Ohio, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Mississippi.

 

[Guest]

You're right about the regular Civics, but Honda Civic Hybrid gets a 10/10 on the EPA score, which is equivalent to the "SULEV II" designation, in Sales Area 7.

Huh. They must've stickered it incorrectly, then.

BP/Amoco ran a commercial the other night touting their gas but it appears to be limited to Indiana, Ohio, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Mississippi.

Until next year when all gas must be low sulfur.

 

[james]

And, say what you will about efficiency and ability to meet emissions standards, diesels still stink!

Literally, I mean. I was just thinking about it this morning: got up bright & early and went outside to enjoy the garden, when the neighbors started up their (pretty new) diesel pickup and let it idle. I'm about 100 feet away, no wind, and could only smell diesel exhaust instead of flowers.

 

[ethicalpaul]

The VW diesels do not stink. They have an interesting smell, but it is not foul, just different from gas. I can't speak to the big pickup smells, though.

 

[No. 166]

In Europe my choice would be the Audi A2 3L (less than 3 Liters of fuel burn per 100 kilometers) It is a 3 cylinder diesel, and all things being equal, can beat the Insight by about 5 mpg. It is not as sleek and good looking, but I sure with they would import them to North America. Billy....

Hmm. Not really a good choice. The A2 doesn't have a rear wiper (4-door hatchback), the rear seat doesn't fold down. You cannot open the hood because it's screwed to the body. There is a so called "inspection-flap"
- the grille - that pops open to check the fluids. :roll:
The engine btw is the same as in the Lupo as is the rubbish transmission.

Due to the fact that the A2 is a poor seller it is being discontiniued for the 2006 model-range

 

[Madeline]

There is no "California version". California has low sulfur gasoline everywhere, whilst in the rest of the country low sulfur is only available in a few larger markets (such as Ammoco Ultimate at BP in Indianapolis).

Ah! I was, in fact, confused by the map of sales area 7 on the EPA website. I know California has different emissions requirements than the rest of the country, and some other states (like New York) use the CA rules instead of the national rules. It seemed odd to me, though, that in such a low-production car as the Insight, there would have been a separate subclass for CA, NY, etc. I'd guessed that there was some really small change made in the cars sent to those states, like in the programming.

So you say the only difference in the sales area 7 emissions vs. the rest of the country emissions is the gas available in CA, NY, etc?

 

[Tim Maddux]

Some cars are different for the different sales areas. Others are the same, but their emissions are different because of the fuel changes. The PZEV-capable Ford Focus, for example, is the same vehicle whereever you buy it, even though you can only achieve PZEV emissions (same as SULEV II, which is 10/10 EPA score) if you fuel it with the correct low-sulfur fuel.

So, what about the Insight? Neither the EPA website nor Honda are helpful in this regard. I suspect the car is the same everywhere and I doubt Honda would bother to change the vehicle for different sales areas, it wouldn't make sense to do so. But I don't have any statement from Honda to back that up; it's speculation.

 

[cakley]

Re: Also consider...

Yes, Diesels are more fuel-efficient than most gasoline cars. The Insight, however, is the most fuel-efficient gasoline-powered car available here in the US and perhaps the world.

A voice in a new TV ad for Honda incorrectly calls the hybrid gasoline- and electric-powered Honda Insight "the most fuel-efficient car in the world."

Actually, it's no better than second. A European-market version of the Volkswagen Lupo sedan gets 77 miles per gallon to Insight's 70-mpg highway rating. Only the year model 2000 non AC cars was rated at 70 :idea:

No problem, Honda says. The fine-print disclaimer at the bottom of the TV ad says Insight's claim is true "when compared to gasoline-powered cars." The 77-mpg Lupo has a diesel engine.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/ ... uto634.htm

The Lupo can also run on Biodiesel and use ZERO gas/diesel/petro per mile.

 

[cakley]

My old Insight could have never allowed me to take a trip from Ga to Ark with a total of 4 people in the car with cruise control set and still get 45mpg! The cruise was set on 80-85mph.

Thats 4 people in one car = 45mpg @ 80-85mph with AC

The Honda Insight would require 2 cars each getting 90mpg (90/2=45) @ 55mph with no AC. To carry the same four people on a trip!

I always told/tell people that the Insight is a great car but should be the second car. The other hybrids ie 4 doors - stink when compared to the VW TDI cars.

The Insight might have been well designed but Honda forgot to train the techs who work on them.

Aftermarket parts for the Insight. Aftermartket parts for the VW TDI too many to list.