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Discussion Starter #1
I've scanned all the warm air posts again to try to find the one (I think there was one) which quoted some real world data for the actual intake air temperature sensor readings for the best mpg.

I think the person said the best zone was 75-85 degrees, but I can't find the post! :x Arrrrrr!!

Can the person who took these readings, or anyone else, post their numbers.

:?: Specifically, what is the ideal window for lean burn? :?:

Does Honda specify that anywhere?

Do we just have to guess?

Has it been tested?

Help!
 

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Discussion Starter #2
p.s.

I stuck temp sensors on the rubber air hose just as it goes into the air filter box, and on the end of the air intake stock system (where the air first enters).

I insulated them, so they don't measure the outside air flowing over, but measure the hose and piping temps which eventually reflect the air temp since that is what is flowing over them - most accurately at the air filter box sensor.

If anyone has readings and comments on target temps for either of those positions, please let me know!
 

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2001 5S "Turbo"
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Why don't you just buy an OBD tool and construct a temp. mount so you can measure the exact IAT from the sensor.

I've done that and monitor it a lot to see what is going on in different scenerios.

I use mine mostly for testing and research but can't give you any exact temperatures for a "stock" Insight as the TURBO heats up the intake air more than the radiator lines going through the intake throttle body.
 

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figgy said:
<snip>

:?: Specifically, what is the ideal window for lean burn? :?:

Does Honda specify that anywhere?

Do we just have to guess?

Has it been tested?

Help!
Only cause and effect from observation is known. And has been tested behind the wheel over many thousand of aggregate miles by several Insight owners.

The best temps are up to 120F via the IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor. Usually read using an OBDII scanner. High humidity also seems to widen the lean burn window. In _extreme_ cold conditions it was reported that an electric hair dryer connected to warm the intake air had a visible MPG result.

There was an old thread in relation to these atmospheric conditions and aerodynamic drag. Such conditions theoretically also reduce said drag and are probably "visible" on the MPG indicator.

HTH! :)
 

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2001 5S "Turbo"
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Discussion Starter #8
I'm looking at the autoxray.com site, and there are a bunch of them that say they do OBDII and the prices differ by over $300 bucks.

What's the one to get?

figgy
 
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Hi Figgy:

___I have to assume you own or have access to a Laptop. If so, why spend upwards of $700.00 when the scanner from OBD-II is only $122.00. I have had this scanner (it was Chisight’s) connected up to my own Insight and it works fantastic. They offer a “Group Buy” price although I don’t know what kind of discount that is as well and if you were interested, I would be more then happy to start one. I have a son at the U of I so the price is ~ $98.00 for me but I bet in a GB that it would cost ~ the same.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1y76s39v][email protected][/email:1y76s39v]
 
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Hi Figgy:

___As an addition, Chisight mentioned to me that at ~ 75 - 80 degrees external ambient is where the AIT’s are optimal for maximum fuel economy IIRC. I believe there is an ~ 10 degree increase in AIT’s from external ambient across the radiator and through the air intake plenum with no radiator block or warm AIT installed. If this is the case, 90 degree AIT’s may be the best for lowest fuel consumption but I cannot conform this. Post a message to the Yahoo Honda-Hybrid forms and I am sure he will see it as he does post there every once in a while. His nick is again, “Chisight”.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1hhs59vr][email protected][/email:1hhs59vr]
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Temps at different places

I don't have a Windoze laptop because I am a Mac bigot. Rrrrrrr.

However the cheapest all-in-one reader is $299, which is less than the $700 one by a lot. I'll call them up next week and see what they have to say.

More importantly, I think the most interesting data would be to determine:

0. Ambient outside temp (at stationary position)

1. Air temp at front entry port to stock system

2. Air temp at (or inside) air filter box

3. Air temp at IAT sensor

I am very curious how these temperatures relate, and how the various warm air mods change them. Doing a radiator block, or cold air inflow blocks like I use sometimes, will change how the different areas of the engine compartment keep or pass heat and it is fun to look at that.

Ideally, we can find a reproducible difference so that all Insight drivers out there can get a cheap remote thermometer set-up and stick it in one place and thereby indirectly estimate their IAT sensor reading within some reasonable error - without having to spend more than 10-20 bucks on a cheapo outdoor thermometer.

For example, if the IAT sensor is 10 degrees hotter than the air filter box air temp, then that would indicate that 110 degrees is good for that temp to get to the 120 IAT reading Insightful Trekker mentions (as a higher limit). With the unmodified stock system, I've never gotten that high at >50 mph, even driving with outside air into the 80s. If 90 is the target at the AIT sensor, then filter box of 80 would be good.

Second question, is how speed impacts these readings. As expected, when I am going faster I see temps for my sensors drop, and I don't imagine that Honda has the Insight doing extra heating for faster driving, so the AIT temps must be dropping as well. How much does speed push air through, vs. the engine sucking it through? Apparently a lot!
 
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Hi Figgy:

___It doesn’t matter what the temps are at the inlet of the plastic or under the hood as the AIT is one that the OBD-II can and does read and is the most important a far as fuel economy is concerned. Outside ambient can either be picked up from the local AM all news station, a Donnelley or Gentex mirror, or a local temp probe sticking out the window (not in direct sunlight of course). The WAI and Radiator block temperature increases have been documented in the Yahoo Honda-Hybrid and in this forum as well. With both mods installed, it is a max of about 30 - 40 degrees above ambient external at highway speeds. It can be much higher then this when you are crawling around in town. Another item you should consider watching if using an OBD-II scan tool is coolant temperature. You may also consider watching High/Low fuel trims, advance, and the O2 sensors output voltage(s) also.

___As for being a Mac Addict, I cannot help you there but older yet still plenty fast Windows laptops can be picked up for < $200 off of Ebay on any given day. A laptop can not only show multiple data points on one screen, it can display that data in multiple views and can even provide data in terms of increasing and decreasing dB or sound levels! In addition, it can record this data for as long as you wish given a 20 GB HD could probably hold enough OBD-II data for maybe 50,000 miles of driving? It would be ridiculous to consider viewing or storing that much OBD-II information from one car imho but I suppose you could if you wanted too?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2pr2oli8][email protected][/email:2pr2oli8]
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Palm OS reader

I. Trekker,

Hey, luckily I am not a Palm OS bigot (I wrote software for Palm OS). I did for Windows as well, oops.

I like the look of the Auterra for Palm OS you mentioned in your other postings.

Are you still using that, and happy?

It looks good to me! I have an m505 gathering dust.

Is this review page on target:

http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/au ... view.shtml
 

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2001 5S "Turbo"
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Right on excel.......

My favorite ones to watch are:
(1) "Timeing", +32 to -15 (boy would you be shocked)
(2) Number 1 o2 sensor, (understand the numbers and you can "see" lean burn, assist, regen, idle, and coast )
(3) Intake air temperature, (especially with the TURBO on boost)
and:
(4) Percent of load (The TURBO actually lessens the load on the engine, even without being on "boost".)
 

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Re: Palm OS reader

figgy said:
I. Trekker,

Hey, luckily I am not a Palm OS bigot (I wrote software for Palm OS). I did for Windows as well, oops.

I like the look of the Auterra for Palm OS you mentioned in your other postings.

Are you still using that, and happy?

<snip>
AHHA!

A Mac bigot writing Windoze software! No wonder PC users software is so buggy! <VBG>

As in my referenced post it does what its supposed to. And the only thing better would be OEM Honda $$$$ (ouch). The "dyno" functions of any such scanner are more of a toy due to the limitations of such (error factors) vs. a fixed dedicated dyno machine. But can be reasonably accurate for playing with.

It only has one "bug" I've found. The menu letter commands in the "writing" area don't work well on my Zire 71. Apparently its a Graffiti 2 issue (the "/(insert letter here)"). So you'll have to directly select from the menu pull down. I haven't written the author on this bug nor checked for an update since last fall. The only other feature I'd like to see is an indication of processing while waiting for a trouble code to be "pulled". It normally takes 10-20 seconds. Sometimes the cable comes loose and therefore the connection fails without timely warning.

The article you linked says everything else. :)
 
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