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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter #741
@mudder has a couple of videos that will answer a lot of your questions. The first one is his own version of MIMA, and the 2nd one shows the fitment of his prototype FoMoCo setup. If you search on YouTube for "John Sullivan LiBCM" or "John Sullivan FoMoCo" you can find a lot more.
Both of the videos you posted seem absolutely ancient to me ;). Here's two more recent ones covering the same topics:

(even this video is old).
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter #743 (Edited)
Thanks for the updated videos. I think I'm sold on the FoMoCo setup with "mudders MIMA".
FYI: mudders MIMA isn't released yet... that'll be early next year (after LiBCM exits open beta).

@mudder is the best best place to get FoMoCo batteries here: Samsung EV Lithium Ion 12s 44.4v 47ah 2.07kWh Module
It's certainly the cheapest place to get modules. However, there are some known quality issues with these modules, but it's also known that Battery Hookup's customer support is quite good, so if you do get a dud module they'll keep sending you more until you get 'good' ones.

The 'best' place is from me, because I've already thoroughly tested them and also prepared them for use with LiBCM. However, there are a few caveats if you purchase them from me:
-Right now I don't plan on shipping them... you'll need to pick them up in either Chattanooga, TN, or LA, CA (once the ones I'm sending there arrive at the distributor).
-I charge more for the modules... but not too much more. BH charges $250/module delivered, whereas I charge $300/module (but you have to come pick them up).

Is it safe to assume you are definitely releasing everything to run the FoMoCo setup? If so, I think I'll go ahead and purchase the batteries.
It's a pretty safe bet that I'll release FoMoCo Kits.
So far I've spent ~$22k for parts specifically for the 47Ah FoMoCo kits... and another ~$20k on FoMoCo modules. If I don't end up shipping FoMoCo Kits, then I'll have wasted ~$44k on otherwise useless parts, many of which are custom-designed specifically for this product, and others which are essentially useless if not for FoMoCo (e.g. what would I do with QTY1000 1" M8 spacers?).

Beyond that, I'm solidly committed to the LiBCM project. I haven't taken on any new clients this year, and I've slowly tapered off most work with my existing clients. I guess you could say I'm retired, but I'll never actually stop working. I'm enjoying free time, which I've found scarce for at least the past decade.

The list of items vying for my attention right now is quite short:
-climbing
-wife
-LiBCM
-wrapping up previous consulting commitments (this sub-list is vanishingly small)
-putting out proverbial fires with existing consulting projects

Nothing is 100%, but as Vivian says in Pretty Woman, "I'm a sure thing."
 

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@mudder Thank you. I think I'll go ahead and wait for the release of the FoMoCo setup from you. Will the MIMA be necessary or can it run as is until that is released in Q1 next year? Is there a way to get put on a waitlist/notification when it's available?
 

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FYI: mudders MIMA isn't released yet... that'll be early next year (after LiBCM exits open beta).


It's certainly the cheapest place to get modules. However, there are some known quality issues with these modules, but it's also known that Battery Hookup's customer support is quite good, so if you do get a dud module they'll keep sending you more until you get 'good' ones.

The 'best' place is from me, because I've already thoroughly tested them and also prepared them for use with LiBCM. However, there are a few caveats if you purchase them from me:
-Right now I don't plan on shipping them... you'll need to pick them up in either Chattanooga, TN, or LA, CA (once the ones I'm sending there arrive at the distributor).
-I charge more for the modules... but not too much more. BH charges $250/module delivered, whereas I charge $300/module (but you have to come pick them up).


It's a pretty safe bet that I'll release FoMoCo Kits.
So far I've spent ~$22k for parts specifically for the 47Ah FoMoCo kits... and another ~$20k on FoMoCo modules. If I don't end up shipping FoMoCo Kits, then I'll have wasted ~$44k on otherwise useless parts, many of which are custom-designed specifically for this product, and others which are essentially useless if not for FoMoCo (e.g. what would I do with QTY1000 1" M8 spacers?).

Beyond that, I'm solidly committed to the LiBCM project. I haven't taken on any new clients this year, and I've slowly tapered off most work with my existing clients. I guess you could say I'm retired, but I'll never actually stop working. I'm enjoying free time, which I've found scarce for at least the past decade.

The list of items vying for my attention right now is quite short:
-climbing
-wife
-LiBCM
-wrapping up previous consulting commitments (this sub-list is vanishingly small)
-putting out proverbial fires with existing consulting projects

Nothing is 100%, but as Vivian says in Pretty Woman, "I'm a sure thing."
MFW wife not on top 😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


Also, how was your vacation? Are you back yet?
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter #746
MFW wife not on top 😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Not an ordered list (which are numbered).

Also, how was your vacation? Are you back yet?
Wonderful. Been back a few days.

@mudder Thank you. I think I'll go ahead and wait for the release of the FoMoCo setup from you.
Click here to get on the waiting list.

Will the MIMA be necessary or can it run as is until that is released in Q1 next year? Is there a way to get put on a waitlist/notification when it's available?
Manual IMA isn't necessary, but is strongly recommended.
I'll post a new thread when "mudder's MIMA" is released. No reservation list; honestly it's such a simple hardware product that I should be able to make as many as people initially order all at the same time.
 

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Not an ordered list (which are numbered).


Wonderful. Been back a few days.


Click here to get on the waiting list.


Manual IMA isn't necessary, but is strongly recommended.
I'll post a new thread when "mudder's MIMA" is released. No reservation list; honestly it's such a simple hardware product that I should be able to make as many as people initially order all at the same time.
Thanks! Can't wait!
 

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After driving several months now on G3 Insight libcm and reading all the news about FoMoCo libcm upgrade I'm really understanding it. The grid charge thing would be essential to get the most from the FoMoCo since the whole point would be more battery capacity for more electric only use (provided MIMA of some sort were in place) and astronomical mpgs. The G3 powered libcm is more for general daily use without grid charging or maximum mpg desire.

Still getting mid 60s mpg on my lithium setup while driving it like a normal car.

-- observations from a layperson
 

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@jeffffej Yeah exactly. I'm running LTO in my red Insight and I'm running G3 Insight LiBCM (exact same as yours) in my silver Insight right now. LTO car has 2x the capacity (over 3 Ah) of the LiBCM car. I'm going to make some tweaks to my LTO build so I can go for maximum MPGs by grid charging to top it off. LiBCM car, it's just get in and go like a normal Insight, except faster. I do top it off too, but the extra capacity isn't enough to help that much with MPGs.
 

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@jeffffej Yeah exactly. I'm running LTO in my red Insight and I'm running G3 Insight LiBCM (exact same as yours) in my silver Insight right now. LTO car has 2x the capacity (over 3 Ah) of the LiBCM car. I'm going to make some tweaks to my LTO build so I can go for maximum MPGs by grid charging to top it off. LiBCM car, it's just get in and go like a normal Insight, except faster. I do top it off too, but the extra capacity isn't enough to help that much with MPGs.
Exactly. In my case (not sure if it has anything do with the condition of my Li cells) even if I top off overnight it gets to around 77% but then after driving drops to around 60% SOC. That's the happy place my car stays at, so there's almost no point in grid charging, it always keeps itself around 60%. But I love that John built in the grid charge option for extreme situations or in the case of FoMoCo it's futureproofed in the sense that the option is there so if someone wants to use little to no gas they can top off with "free" grid power every night and hits the streets again mostly electric.
 

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I ran a question by mudder in this thread a number of months back. I think I understood that there may be a way to get the car to keep itself at a SOC lower than the 60% it usually wants to live in order to maximize grid charging gains. Related to changing some values in a lookup table. Possibly the Batsci table, but don't quote me on that. I'm ready to explore this idea.
 

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@jeffffej,

I believe Mudder set the upper grid charge limit to be 78-75% as a safety against overcharging. Mine charge to that point as well, and I don't believe I've ever seen more than 84% even in an extreme downhill regeneration situation.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter #753 (Edited)
After driving several months now on G3 Insight libcm and reading all the news about FoMoCo libcm upgrade I'm really understanding it. The grid charge thing would be essential to get the most from the FoMoCo since the whole point would be more battery capacity for more electric only use (provided MIMA of some sort were in place) and astronomical mpgs. The G3 powered libcm is more for general daily use without grid charging or maximum mpg desire.
Absolutely this. FoMoCo LiBCM is best suited for those who grid charge daily AND have a manual IMA controller. Otherwise you're just going to haul around dead weight all the time.

Still getting mid 60s mpg on my lithium setup while driving it like a normal car.
I'm not a hypermiler by any means. Before installing FoMoCo and manual IMA, I'd pretty much always get mid-to-high 50s when driving around town. On longer trips (most of my driving), I'd get low 50s. Lots of hills and I drive fast most of the time. My lifetime average is 54.6 mpg.

Since installing FoMoCo in my car, so far on this tank my odometer reads:


This is mostly "around town" driving with maybe five 70 mile highway trips (going highway speeds) and maybe ten 20 mile trips, with lots of hilly driving. Given that I've only used 4.9 gallons of gas, I feel confident I'll finally break 1000 miles on a single fuel tank ;).

Obviously we need to factor in energy consumed from the wall, too. So far on this tank, I've consumed 90.6 kWh, which by NHTSA definition is equivalent to 2.7 gallons of ethanol free gas. So then I've used 7.6 equivalent gas gallons (4.9 gallons real gas, 2.7 e-gallons), which works out to 88.5 MPGe. That's a ~30 mpg improvement, which is pretty good considering I'm not a hypermiler... I'm typically driving faster than traffic.

I'm quite excited to see what true hypermilers can accomplish. My best single drive yet achieved 1175 mpg over 25 miles, with a 120 MPGe. I was driving 35 mph down a flat road in the middle of nowhere with zero traffic or stop signs. IIRC, the best hypermilers can achieve 120 mpg with the stock NiMH cells, so again, I'm super excited to see what dedicated hypermilers can achieve. It would be pretty awesome if someone could drive 75 miles and hit 150 MPGe... not sure that's possible, but we'll find out.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter #754 (Edited)
I ran a question by mudder in this thread a number of months back. I think I understood that there may be a way to get the car to keep itself at a SOC lower than the 60% it usually wants to live in order to maximize grid charging gains. Related to changing some values in a lookup table. Possibly the Batsci table, but don't quote me on that. I'm ready to explore this idea.
Absolutely, and I will eventually add it to firmware... it's on my TODO list. For the "charges every night" crew, it'll move the "maintain 60% SoC" setpoint down to something like "maintain 25% SoC". All this requires is remapping the spoofed SoC and voltage values sent to the MCM, but it's not a high priority item and probably won't be in the v1.0.0 release. There are so many other things I need to do first.

I believe Mudder set the upper grid charge limit to be 78-75% as a safety against overcharging. Mine charge to that point as well, and I don't believe I've ever seen more than 84% even in an extreme downhill regeneration situation.
Correct. The grid charger stops at ~75%, and all charging stops at 85%. Charging above 85% rapidly decreases battery life. For example, increasing the SoC charge cutoff to 100% will yield just 2% of the overall cycle count (e.g. 200 cycles instead of 10000). The extra 15% SoC just isn't worth the massive cycle life drop.

I will eventually add an option to allow grid charging up to 85%. This will work as follows:
-If SoC is less than 70% when the grid charger is first plugged in, then LiBCM will charge the pack up to 75%.
-If SoC is greater than 70% when the grid charger is first plugged in, then LiBCM will charge the pack up to 85%.

So basically if you want to charge up to 85%, then once the grid charger initially stops charging (i.e. at 75%), then you'll just unplug and replug the grid charger... at which point it'll charge up to 85%. On my todo list, but also won't be in v1.0.0.

...

Note: Most electronics manufacturers don't show the customer the true SoC... instead, they remap the cells' actual usable SoC range (e.g. 10% through 85%) to 0 through 100%. So when your iPhone says your battery is "100% charged", it's really something like 85% charged.

I don't personally see any compelling reason to remap LiBCM's SoC... if anything, it will confuse me. However, I can see that remapping SoC might make more sense to casual users. I've added a TODO item to create a user-selectable option to "REMAP_ACTUAL_SoC_TO_FULL_SCALE_PERCENT"... not a high priority, and certainly won't be in v1.0.0
 

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I ran a question by mudder in this thread a number of months back. I think I understood that there may be a way to get the car to keep itself at a SOC lower than the 60% it usually wants to live in order to maximize grid charging gains. Related to changing some values in a lookup table. Possibly the Batsci table, but don't quote me on that. I'm ready to explore this idea.
Yeah we targeted 60% because that's like, for the G3 Insight battery modules, the optimum SoC to achieve the slowest long-term battery degradation. The cells are going to degrade over the years, it's unavoidable, but the decay rate is slowest around 60%.
 

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Maximum battery life is typically achieved by remaining between just above freezing to ~40 degC....
The primary low temperature concern is that the liquid electrolyte freezes. In this condition, the cells are easily damaged by lithium plating whenever current is flowing. To prevent this type of damage, LiBCM will eventually disable assist and regen at temperatures this low... I will certainly add this feature before next winter.
Any chance you could add the ability to display the battery temp on the 4x20 display? Perhaps a configurable option to replace something else (perhaps remove delta?) Just a thought. It would help those of us in northern climates to be able to better understand how much we need to crank up the cabin heat and whether that heat is going to help us be able to use the battery at some point on a given trip.

Thanks,
Bryan
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter #757
Any chance you could add the ability to display the battery temp on the 4x20 display? Perhaps a configurable option to replace something else (perhaps remove delta?) Just a thought. It would help those of us in northern climates to be able to better understand how much we need to crank up the cabin heat and whether that heat is going to help us be able to use the battery at some point on a given trip.
It's already there... 2nd item in the 3rd row. Example "T20C" means the battery is at 20 degC.
 

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Discussion Starter #759
Still waiting on one custom part to arrive... should have been here NOV03. I'm posting updates in this thread:
 
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