[Guest]

Sometimes when my SOC drops very low (5 bars or less) the car will force charge for a long time and never seem to gain any bars, then suddenly the SOC jumps all the way to the top and I lose regenerative braking for a few miles. Is the a recalibration? My insight is fairly new, an '06 w/ <8K miles. Does anyone else get these "reverse recals"? Also, I've noticed that my SOC tends to move less when the temp is in the 40's or lower. I can have 3 bars remaining or be 3 bars from the top and no matter how much assist or charging I do, it never seems to move very much until the ambient temp goes up. Has anybody else seen this on their own car?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Yes, your describing a "positive" recal. The more unusual of the two.

See:

Recals, Forced Charge, IMA Battery & thermal mgmt - long
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=750

for the rest of the story.

HTH!

 

[Mountain driver]

Recal or what?

My first post:

Bought an 01 cvt insight last month, 145k miles, battery pack replaced at 95K (according to carfax), car working great in mountainous terrain avg'g 55 mpg.

On way to work today (50 miles one way), Soc dropped below 50%, first I've seen this, and regen was indicated at only 4 bars. Regen would not go above 4 bars even during coasting or braking. Soc would only gain a bar or two. No codes or faults indicated. Difficult to go into assist, but would go with extra throttle pressure.

Just before arriving at work, Soc went to 90% in a split second, and would not accept any regen.

Prior to this, the car worked as I have read about, super!

Is this recal, a regen problem, computer in need of reset (I've read about disconnect of 12v batt negative cable), or what?

Anxious to hear some opinion and experience.

Mountain driver in PA

 

[Eli]

Sounds like you experienced a positive recal. It's possible you missed the negative recal?

The regen behavior was likely caused by a hot pack or cell.

This is all normal behavior, and quite difficult to understand overall.. the IMA system can be very confounding. I wouldn't worry too much at this point, but try and watch the behavior of the systems more closely so you can get a feel for any patterns.

Look into the OBDIIC&C Gauge so you can see exactly what is happening with your battery.

 

[Mountain driver]

Thanks Eli,

Interesting info. I have read about hot packs and use of the cars A/C system to manage interior temps for the pack. I was trying to economize by using vent air only.

I'm new at hybrids, so I'll have to ask what is the OBDIIC&C gauge?

 

[Eli]

The battery is very cramped up back there. It's also a 60lb hunk of nickel. It doesn't take very long to heat up due to the power exchange(assist/regen), but it takes a long time to cool down.

A/C will help, no doubt about it.. however it isn't the answer IMO. With the OBDIIC&C Gauge, you can not only see the batteries temperature, you can control the battery fan.

Sorry, I know I sound like a walking advertisement, but this is where we're at in the evolutionary journey that is the Insight. Knowledge is power, and being able to control aspects of the IMA system allows human intelligence to enter the equation. I have found that turning the battery fan on preemptively helps pack temperatures significantly, especially during cooler weather. Why let the pack heat up to 110 degrees before turning the fan on when you can keep the pack at 80 degrees with it running constantly?

Anyway, that was kinda a tangent on heat.. We know that heat greatly affects battery life and performance(See: Arizona), so it's a relevant thought.

Like I said, just watch things. You're looking for patterns.. The negative and positive recalibrations tend to happen at the same place on the gauge each time under similar circumstances.

Of course, the gauge cluster is very dumbed down and should be taken with a grain of salt. Another reason why the OBDIIC&C Gauge is so valuable/powerful.. It tells you actual numbers. Some examples are..
Background charge(No regen bars) can range from 0.5 - 12 amps.
4 bars of regen can be 0.5 - 30 amps.
Full assist is not always full assist, it can range from 40 - 95 amps.
The dash State of Charge meter seems have the ability to re-scale. I have seen 40% actual SoC be anywhere from 3 bars to half full.

Like I said, confounding.. We're slowly figuring things out though.....

 

[Mountain driver]

How can opertate the battery pack fan?

Also, I notice a pack air inlet behind the passenger seat, is there an accessable air filter that may require periodic cleaning?

 

[Eli]

With this.

If you're handy, you can also just wire a switch to be able to control the battery fan.

That's correct, the vent behind/next to the passenger seat is the battery fan inlet. There is no filter. Air is sucked into the vent, travels through the battery pack, and is exhausted via a 120mm computer fan into the IPU, where it is then vented into the spare tire well. From there it makes it's way back into the cabin. All of the carpet and indirect airflow routes cause an insulative effect.. The pack runs much cooler with the IPU cover off, but obviously that isn't recommended.

 

[Willie Williford]

Mountain driver;
Now it's time to put your location in your profile.

Willie

 

[Mountain driver]

Drive home this morning and drive back to work today mostly normal. Assist and regen performed normal, and fuel mileage back to expected 50-53 up hill, 62 + back home.

I have noticed the up hill climb is using more battery than a few weeks ago (dropping below 50%), warmer weather?

Also ran A/C for cabin and pack temp.

More questions: are recals common and neccesary?

Another question: noticed on the carfax prior to purchase (01 cvt 145K) several "reprogrammed computer" entries. Is this a required maintenance item?

 

[5631]

I have noticed the up hill climb is using more battery than a few weeks ago (dropping below 50%), warmer weather?

Also ran A/C for cabin and pack temp.

The A/C puts more load on the engine which could result in more IMA assist to maintain the same speeds as without A/C which would drop the average battery pack SOC. This is a bit more complicated with a CVT because the CVT could also reduce the gear ratio (increase the engine speed) to maintain speed without needing to invoke as much assist.

The IMA system will automatically prevent the SOC from dropping to 0 by increasing regen, both forced (shown on the regen gauge) and background (not shown on the regen gauge). I think too many Insight drivers worry about their battery packs' SOC and try to control it. Some do it to increase fuel efficiency which is understandable, but others seem to think that a battery pack that isn't fully-charged is problematic, akin to a 12 v. battery. Later versions of the IMA battery management system adjusts assist and regen to maintain an average battery pack SOC of around 60% which seems to be best for battery pack longevity.

More questions: are recals common and neccesary?

Recals are necessary to correct the indicated SOC that gradually becomes incorrect due to battery pack self-discharge which can't be measured by the IMA system and to battery pack deterioration which results in lower capacity.

If the frequency of recals is increasing, this is usually an indication of increasing battery pack deterioration. This can be corrected somewhat by balance-charging the battery pack with a custom charger.

Another question: noticed on the carfax prior to purchase (01 cvt 145K) several "reprogrammed computer" entries. Is this a required maintenance item?

It's unclear what is meant by "reprogrammed computer". It's certainly not a maintenance item. I suspect that Honda applied firmware updates to one or more of the various computers/controllers or updated one or more of the computers/controllers themselves (some cannot have their firmware updated).

 

[Mountain driver]

Thanks for the info Art, yours and others input is helpful for me to learn how to operate my 'new' cvt.

Another question while I'm still awake enough, bought the car with 145k, carfax indicated battery replacement at 95k, what's the general consensus on remaining life of this pack? Hoping to get 2 yrs/45k out of it in order to save enough gas $ to pay for the car and new pack.

..Bob

 

[Eli]

How many years ago was 95k?

 

[Mountain driver]

How many years ago was 95k?

Without the carfax in front of me, I think the pack was replaced in 2007.

..Bob

 

[Eli]

Hmm. That's a tough one..

On the one hand, I think it's before the time period when Honda apparently moved from giving new packs to giving refurbed packs with warranty claims.

On the other, it's still a middle aged battery even if it was brand new.

Really no way to tell how long it will last.

 

[5631]

I think that it's generally true that battery packs in CVT Insights have lasted longer than those in MT Insights. This is probably because battery packs in CVT Insights can't be stressed as much as those in MT Insights, especially when MT Insight drivers demand lots of assist repeatedly by not downshifting when the engine is under high load. So your battery pack probably has a better chance of good longevity than if yours was a MT Insight.

 

[Eli]

Ah, very true Art. The CVT does seem to be easier on the battery overall, thus extending life.

 

[Mountain driver]

Ah, very true Art. The CVT does seem to be easier on the battery overall, thus extending life.

Thanks guys, the info is reassuring. After parking the pick-up truck for my 100 mile round trip to work, I'm saving $$$ big time with my insight. Hoping to pay for it and susequent pack in 24 months.

..Bob

 

[kennysmith]

Hey I've been wondering about battery temps. I would say on average since getting the OBDC&C Gauge I have seen average SOC around 42%. I use MIMA a lot, maybe I should turn if off and see what my SOC would be like for a couple days. Our CVT HCH maintains a much higher SOC. It also has almost 170K on the original battery with no issues.

But I have been wondering about battery temps. I never seem to go a day w/o hitting 95-100. Should I really be trying to stay around 80? Could I be too aggressive w/MIMA?

 

[MrChuckles]

After parking the pick-up truck for my 100 mile round trip to work, I'm saving $$$ big time with my insight.

Hey Bob,

Welcome to the forum. I bought my Insight about 18 months ago (after my truck got wrecked in an auto accident) to save some money on fuel. Last year, when I took a contract job down in Atlanta, I calculated that I saved over $3000 on fuel within just 6 months by driving the Insight rather than the truck that it replaced, while commuting back & forth each week.

At the time, I wasn't aware of (and didn't think to look for) Insight Central, so when my car performed it's first positive recall, my first thought was that something had gone wrong with the car. However, after thinking about it for a while, I thought that maybe the car's computer just allowed the battery to get low once in a while (before recharging it to full) to run a longer maintenance cycle to clear the memory that many NiMH batteries have. I guess I wasn't too far of the mark, but now that I've been on the forum for a while and have been learning from the experience of all those that have gone before us, I more fully appreciate & better understand how the Gen 1 Insights operate. They definitely are a little different from most vehicles and require a bit of a learning curve but, at the same time, I realize how cutting edge technologically they really are.

Don't hesitate to use the "Search" function to research certain aspects of the Insight as I've found many of my questions have been answered long ago by Insight owners who had previously experienced the exact same issues as I had. But also, don't hesitate to ask questions here as we are all still learning new, previously unknown or untested aspects of the Gen 1 Insights. Additionally, there is some incredible research, development work & in-depth testing being performed by several members of Insight Central on several different topics.

One last point, since you are in the Eastern/Mid-Atlantic region, you might want to consider joining some of us for a get together near Frederick, MD on September 8-9, 2012. The event is listed under:

Hybrid Socials and Events

Here's the link:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/hybrid-socials-events/22168-meeting-mid-atlantic-gen1-insight-owners.html

Regards,
Kerry