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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all, I've been experiencing an interesting problem lately and I was wondering if anyone else has as well. When I am decelerating and charging (of course :D ) and I begin to brake, I get a bit of a "jerk" almost like the brakes were delayed for a bit. At first, I thought the rear brakes were out of adjustment and they were "catching up" so to speak.

No external rear brake adjustment, so I've been backing up a bit more aggressively in an attempt to adjust them. Recently when I got the "jerk" while braking, I noticed the charge indicator go from mid way to one or two bars then jump up to 3/4 of the way or so.?

It seems that when I am charging on deceleration, and apply the brake, the car jerks a bit when it increases the charge rate. It doesn't happen every time, and I have yet to determine exactly when it does happen, specifically where the charge rate is in relation to the "jerk."

Please let me know if anyone else is having this problem and/or has some insight (hehehe) on what might be going on.

Thanks,
Mark
 

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Not quite sure if I understand your description of whats happening but....... when decelerating... foot off the throttle and in regen mode a certain amount of drag is experienced and shown on the display.
While this is happening a delicate application of the brake pedal but not the brakes,will induce max regen with increased drag and corresponding bar display....
Is this the jerk you are feeling ?
If you understand this function and know what to expect from it but the jerk is more severe, then something else could be amiss.
Do you have a CVT on manual box.

DGate
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi, thanks for the reply. I have a 2001 CVT. I realize the function that is taking place during deceleration and increased regen during braking. However, I am experiencing a bit of a jerk, more than just a normal application of the brakes. In other words my experience of the "jerk" is outside anything else I've encountered in my 20+ years of driving.

It's almost as if the brakes are too sensitive-but the jumping charge display bars makes me think it isn't a brake issue, rather an electrical issue? Additionally, the brakes function normally under every other circumstance. It's like there is a flat spot during charging-regen and when I apply the brakes the increase is felt in a dramatic way. At one point I thought the trans was downshifting, but having a CVT and that idea don't go together :roll:

Thanks,
Mark
 

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Skuits wrote..... I noticed the charge indicator go from mid way to one or two bars then jump up to 3/4 of the way or so.?


Is this the battery charge indicator on the right or the regen charge indicator at the top left ?

DGate
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry- the green regen charge indicator-top left.

I am starting to wonder if I am getting a delayed vacuum assist to the brake booster.? My 2nd car '82 Honda Accord, had a check valve in the vacuum line to the brake booster. Once in a while, typically in the morning I suspect the valve would stick, because on my first application for the morning the pedal would be hard and braking would be reduced. Just a thought. :roll:

Thanks,
Mark
 

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Skuits said:
Sorry- the green regen charge indicator-top left.

I am starting to wonder if I am getting a delayed vacuum assist to the brake booster.? My 2nd car '82 Honda Accord, had a check valve in the vacuum line to the brake booster. Once in a while, typically in the morning I suspect the valve would stick, because on my first application for the morning the pedal would be hard and braking would be reduced. Just a thought. :roll:

Thanks,
Mark
I don't think a faulty power brake vacuum assist would have anything to do with the fluctuation in the regen charge gauge on an Insight. The regen charge function is initiated by closing the circuit on the brakelight switch located on the brake pedal inside the car. I don't believe it has any relaton to the amount of friction brake engagement or vacuum power assist for that engagement.

I suspect the reason for harder braking on the first stop in the morning is that the pads are cold.
 

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I had this issue with no codes last fall; the dealership burnished the clutch plates under warranty (CVT).

It re-manifested, and they said the EGV valve needed replacement. I checked in the service manual, which recommended cleaning the valve with carb cleaner first. Removed the engine cover and confirmed that nobody'd done that, so that was the end of my relationship with that dealer.

I did buy an EGV valve which is sitting at the ready in my shop.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi Jsanford, thanks for the reply. I too have no codes and the problem doesn't occur every time I brake? I've seen the bulletin on the CVT clutch plates-so that actually cured your problem for a bit?

I am not familiar with the EGV valve? Do you mean the EGR valve-(Exhaust Gas Recirculation)? Are you still experiencing the problem?

I note my issue is always on deceleration and while braking, and it does seem to be like the trans is downshifting rapidly, which doesn't make sense with the design of the CVT-that is unless it is a clutch issue. I am thrown off a bit with this notion due to the fact that green regen/charge indicator changes so rapidly.

I wonder what it takes to burnish the clutch plates?

Thanks for your input.

Mark
 

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If this is a downshift anomaly you would also witness an irregular jump on the Rev counter,have you noticed this?
Slippage of any component on the overrun ( when slowing) would cause both the ICE and IMA to vary their revs irradicately making the Regen indicator and rev counter jump and the sensation of a jerk felt.
When deaccelerating or slowing the motion of the car is driving the ICE/IMA solidly through all components while the CVT lowers ratios, any malfunction of the belt drive,clutch or hydraulic control system of the variator pulley's would cause jerking.
This is amplified since a lower ratio is being selected.
Could be a hydraulic glitch, have you had the CVT serviced/ flushed etc ?
Which mode (sport or drive ) is the CVT in when the jerk happens?
These modes are pre mapped electronically which might lead in a different direction for a solution.
Does it only happen when touching the brake pedal but not the hydraulic brakes?

DGate
 

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I have a 2002 CVT and have experienced the same thing being described here -- along with other symptoms that I consider to be clearly transmission related...

When I bought my car a little over a year ago, it had the "judder" problem pretty bad, which was corrected by the slip clutch burnishing procedure under warranty. Since that procedure, though, a ton of very subtle behaviors have cropped up that are driving me crazy and resulting in ever sinking MPG (down to low-40s!!). This "jerk" being described by the OP happens infrequently and unpredictably for me, but it's very noticeable when it happens. I'd call it more of a clunk, and it makes the charge/assist gauge jump, RPMs fluctuate, and there's a tiny little buck.

My overall theory is that the slip-clutch burnishing may have smoothed out the judder, but now the whole transmission is out of sync with the IMA. Most of my transmission related complaints have to do with the sensation that the CVT is "sticking" in inefficient ratios, is slow to respond, is slipping (and not getting to the right RPMs) -- and the judder is starting to come back. Most of these symptoms are much more noticeable in "S" mode, especially when driving harder to really test it.

I've been trying to ignore this whole deal for the moment because I had a pretty big dust-up with my local Honda dealer a couple of months ago. I explained all of my issues and symptoms, and they ran a million tests... But, surprise, they couldn't find anything wrong. And told me I needed an oil change (2500 miles into a fresh batch of Mobil 1 0w-20. Hmmm...).

Anyway, I'm ranting and writing this in a big hurry, so I hope it makes some sense!

Nick
'02 CVT (Silver)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hello all, thanks for your replies. I haven't noticed the tachometer (rev counter) jump when experienceing the "jerk" I'll have to watch out for that. I am only slightly pressing on the brake pedal when the "jerk" occurs without really engaging the brakes to any to degree. I am driving in the D mode as I've only used the S mode once since I bought the car a few months ago.

The car has 80K miles on it and I serviced the trans with the proper Honda CVT fluid, I think it may have had Honda regular ATF in it before as it was darker in color. I don't recall having the "jerk" issue before changing the fluid, but I wasn't as critical as it was all still new to me. I didn't flush the trans at the time of the fluid change.

I am not currently experienceing the "judder" on take off (knock on wood) so all is well there. I don't get the "jerk" everytime I brake, but oddly when I go to turn onto my street is when it seems to be the most common.

Has anyone found a difinitive solution to this problem? I'd love to hear more about all the things that have been tried in order to cure it. I am wondering if it is just a trait of the trans.?

Thanks again,
Mark
 

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Definitely not a trait of the transmission, something is wrong,I suspect on the hydraulic side either with the clutch control or the variators.A sticking control valve suddenly releasing would cause a jerk in the ratio change,likewise with the clutch if it is on that side.
You mention changing the fluid did you do it yourself or did Honda? If you did it yourself cleanlyness is paramount,any grit entering the system could cause this symptom.

DGate
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hello all, I've been paying a bit more attention as to when I get the "jerk" or "buck." The tachometer does in fact jump up when I am experiencing the issue. First it begins to lower, then jumps up a few hundred RPM's. or so? I've noticed that the issue always happens when I am below 2k RPM's. It seems more and more as if the trans is just downshifting abruptly.

Someone mentioned the IMA and trans being sychronized???


Thanks,
Mark
 

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Why start a new thread when there is an old one that has all the info I need. I'm wondering if Skuits or nick_b are still driving the same vehicles.

I have a 2002 CVT with 51K on it, I've experienced this about once or twice a week since November. When I picked up the car my front brakes were rusty and worn unevenly, probably due to a sticky caliper. Changed out the front brakes for a fresh start, seemed like a good plan with winter coming on.

The "jerking" symptoms seem exactly like those experienced 2 years ago by the two posters I listed above. I can add the following: It occurs when the CVT is changing ratios, hence the jump in RPM's mentioned by Skuits. It seems more likely to happen when road conditions are wet or slushy. The most severe incident was at about 15 mph, shifting to the lowest range, with two people and a full tank of gas (yeah, we were 50 lbs overloaded).

Just wondering if anyone has seen this since, or if the original 2 posters still drive those cars.

Thanks,
Brian
 

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Good comment Brian. There are a lot of posts that haven't been solved or reported by the original poster. I guess that is to keep you "guessing" for some time.
You mentioned wet roads and turning. Could it be the ABS locking up?
I've had a similar experience while crossing over cattle guards on the back roads while braking even though my vehicle is a 5 speed.

Willie
 

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I have had a similar issue in my 02 CVT when driving/braking on wet and cold roads (with stock tires). I have the same symptom, car goes to max regen very harshly under application of brakes, only rarely, only when cold and wet roads, and only when slowing from maybe 40-ish MPH. In fact, I think (i can't be sure) I have only noticed it in one physical location, a 40 MPH zone, new pavement, right after a bumpy railroad crossing approaching a stoplight. I know this is the only place it has happened repeatedly.

I tend to think something like ABS is a good thing to look into. Perhaps the car is charging slightly (from letting almost completely off the accelerator) and then when brake is depressed, a slight slip (from road conditions, or maybe even a pothole) causes the ABS to engage (turning off the charge) and then the ABS senses good braking and the system throws it back into full charge. Something amiss with the CVT (from lack of fluid changes, indicated by previous "judder" issues) causes the belt to stick in the lower ratio before it jumps up to the higher one. To me, the issues seems related to the acceleration judder. When I purchased my car, it had major judder, which was nearly completely corrected with a fluid change. If I take off a little fast facing uphill, I can still detect it.

This is all speculation without a complete understanding of how the system works.

EDIT: I should also note that I am pretty sure my brake pads are due to be changed, I noticed a squeak from the front passenger brakes when I stopped a few times last week that sounded like the worn pads indicator. BrianZ, did you change your pads, rotors, and/or calipers when you changed your brakes?
 

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Thanks Willie and nayrhyno for the info. I'm leaning with both of you towards brakes, not the CVT. Most of the time I've noticed it at the higher speeds 35-40 mph. Only a couple time did I get it at the lower change below 20 MPH.

I haven't had any "judder" or vibration issues to this point. Have never driven the car in summer conditions though, so we'll find out in a few months if there are any other symptoms. I am running the stock tires also.

I did change out pads, rotors and calipers all at once. Natrhyno - let me know if your front passenger side is more noticeably worn than the driver's side pads. Just curious, that's how mine was when I bought it, at only 46.5K. The lifetime mpg was at 37.8, so I think the original owner may have driven with one foot on the brake at all times.

Thanks again!
Brian
 

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I have had a similar issue in my 02 CVT when driving/braking on wet and cold roads (with stock tires). I have the same symptom, car goes to max regen very harshly under application of brakes, only rarely, only when cold and wet roads, and only when slowing from maybe 40-ish MPH......
I have a manual 2000 Insight, and have noticed the same exact thing under the following conditions:

1) The roads are rain covered
2) The wind is blowing above 30 mph from the side
3) This situation is pre-MIMA
4) Very lightly touching the brakes, causes maximum regen, no matter the amount of brake pedal depression
5) When the roads dry the phenomena disappears, even if the wind is still blowing strong

I have not found a solution, but it does seem like it could be an electrical issue perhaps? Something that is affected when it gets wet?

The wind is also a factor.

I can drive on wet roads for 30 miles, and the issue does not occur, but if there is strong wind involved, then it does.

Please note that I have the entire engine compartment covered with smoothing panels, so somehow the wind drives the rain into a spot that affects the issue. Without the wind, I have not seen the problem, either wet or cold.

Jim.
 
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