Joined
·
171 Posts
For background info, the plan right now is to use modified Nissan Leaf cells as the default lithium battery for Linsight. On a side note, I'm really excited for the future because as more EVs come to market, prices will drop and our options will increase. To get the ball rolling, a few issues need to be sorted out:
(1) Leaf cells are by default wired in a 2S2P (Two in series, two in parallel) configuration. They need to be re-wired to a 4S1P configuration for double the voltage, otherwise you would need to cram in more weight than what the battery bay was designed for, and you'd still have less voltage than ideal.
(2)The cells also require one voltage sense lead for each cell, another modification that has to be made to the cell. These mods require care because if you accidentally short the battery you could cause a fire, shock yourself, etc.
(3) While you can purchase leaf cells online, they're kind of expensive, then you have the added effort of opening up the batteries, re-wiring them, adding leads, etc, which is risky and time-consuming (for a novice).
The idea mudder proposed is to find someone willing to source wrecked Leafs, pull out and take apart the battery pack, and modify the cells individually with the needed parts, and sell the cells for a profit. Once you learn the routine and maybe buy/build specialized tools to speed up the process, it could be a good side income, or even a real business for someone. Based on this post from a guy who created an account just to comment about his go-kart application, I would say there could be a great market for these modified cells outside of just Linsight conversions.
I've mulled over the idea of being the guy, and while I haven't discarded the idea yet, I really don't know if I'd be ideal person. I can't see a lot of wrecked leafs in my area, and having to drive several hours each way would add a lot of cost to the business. Then again I did have a part-time job that I enjoyed as a teenager modifying electronics, so maybe this is something that just needs more thought before diving in.
Whoever decides to run this should obviously try to do so efficiently to keep cost down, should have easy access to a regular supply of wrecked Leafs, etc. Then again maybe if you're doing something on the business scale you could work out a delivery arrangement with the source for a reasonable price? Not sure.
Looking on copart.com (haven't looked at other sources yet), there's a huge glut of Leafs down in Atlanta, GA, as well as a decent amount in Oregon & California. More research needs to be done, but it might be ideal if someone that lived in those areas picked up the business.
The early Leafs (Leaves?
) seem to suffer from pre-mature battery degradation in hot climates. Apparently the battery chemistry used simply didn't hold up that well to heat, and since the Leaf battery pack didn't have active cooling they would just cook. Later on in the life of the Leaf they changed the battery chemistry to better withstand heat. Mudder mentioned at InsightFest that it was the 2013+ models with the better chemistry, though my own research suggests it's actually the 2015+, and maybe some 2014+ models that have the better chemistry, nicknamed "lizard" batteries.
I did find one conflicting piece of information where a guy made a video showing how to disassemble a 2013 leaf pack, and he had a caption in the video "2013 Lizard Battery?". But the question mark makes me think he was just wondering if maybe everyone else's assumptions about them were just wrong. It's instead possible that the Leaf he bought had a 2015 battery pack that was replaced under warranty, and he wasn't aware of it. I haven't found any original source material yet that affirmatively states when they switched to a heat-resistant chemistry.
From what I can tell every Leaf has 48 cells per car. With Mudder's "ideal" configuration of 12 cells per Insight, you're looking at enough cells for 4 conversions for each Leaf you source. His estimate was around $3k per Leaf, or around $750 per Insight "pack", plus the cost of mod parts and the value of your labor, which seems like a decent estimate. It is worth noting you can pull off and sell some of the other parts. I stumbled across a write-up from a guy who did that and logged what he sold and for how much. I'm sure a few of the parts are valuable enough to be worth the time. Once you've salvaged what's worthwhile, just take the thing to the wrecking yard for scrap.
So, what are your thoughts? Want to take up the mantle? Tips or ideas for the person who does? Any good info about the cells that you've found?
(1) Leaf cells are by default wired in a 2S2P (Two in series, two in parallel) configuration. They need to be re-wired to a 4S1P configuration for double the voltage, otherwise you would need to cram in more weight than what the battery bay was designed for, and you'd still have less voltage than ideal.
(2)The cells also require one voltage sense lead for each cell, another modification that has to be made to the cell. These mods require care because if you accidentally short the battery you could cause a fire, shock yourself, etc.
(3) While you can purchase leaf cells online, they're kind of expensive, then you have the added effort of opening up the batteries, re-wiring them, adding leads, etc, which is risky and time-consuming (for a novice).
The idea mudder proposed is to find someone willing to source wrecked Leafs, pull out and take apart the battery pack, and modify the cells individually with the needed parts, and sell the cells for a profit. Once you learn the routine and maybe buy/build specialized tools to speed up the process, it could be a good side income, or even a real business for someone. Based on this post from a guy who created an account just to comment about his go-kart application, I would say there could be a great market for these modified cells outside of just Linsight conversions.
I've mulled over the idea of being the guy, and while I haven't discarded the idea yet, I really don't know if I'd be ideal person. I can't see a lot of wrecked leafs in my area, and having to drive several hours each way would add a lot of cost to the business. Then again I did have a part-time job that I enjoyed as a teenager modifying electronics, so maybe this is something that just needs more thought before diving in.
Whoever decides to run this should obviously try to do so efficiently to keep cost down, should have easy access to a regular supply of wrecked Leafs, etc. Then again maybe if you're doing something on the business scale you could work out a delivery arrangement with the source for a reasonable price? Not sure.
Looking on copart.com (haven't looked at other sources yet), there's a huge glut of Leafs down in Atlanta, GA, as well as a decent amount in Oregon & California. More research needs to be done, but it might be ideal if someone that lived in those areas picked up the business.
The early Leafs (Leaves?
) seem to suffer from pre-mature battery degradation in hot climates. Apparently the battery chemistry used simply didn't hold up that well to heat, and since the Leaf battery pack didn't have active cooling they would just cook. Later on in the life of the Leaf they changed the battery chemistry to better withstand heat. Mudder mentioned at InsightFest that it was the 2013+ models with the better chemistry, though my own research suggests it's actually the 2015+, and maybe some 2014+ models that have the better chemistry, nicknamed "lizard" batteries.I did find one conflicting piece of information where a guy made a video showing how to disassemble a 2013 leaf pack, and he had a caption in the video "2013 Lizard Battery?". But the question mark makes me think he was just wondering if maybe everyone else's assumptions about them were just wrong. It's instead possible that the Leaf he bought had a 2015 battery pack that was replaced under warranty, and he wasn't aware of it. I haven't found any original source material yet that affirmatively states when they switched to a heat-resistant chemistry.
From what I can tell every Leaf has 48 cells per car. With Mudder's "ideal" configuration of 12 cells per Insight, you're looking at enough cells for 4 conversions for each Leaf you source. His estimate was around $3k per Leaf, or around $750 per Insight "pack", plus the cost of mod parts and the value of your labor, which seems like a decent estimate. It is worth noting you can pull off and sell some of the other parts. I stumbled across a write-up from a guy who did that and logged what he sold and for how much. I'm sure a few of the parts are valuable enough to be worth the time. Once you've salvaged what's worthwhile, just take the thing to the wrecking yard for scrap.
So, what are your thoughts? Want to take up the mantle? Tips or ideas for the person who does? Any good info about the cells that you've found?
