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Discussion Starter #1
Hey!
So, I upgraded my bulbs in my 2011 EX. Started with Lasfit LC6 LED lows, then Nokya Stage 1 yellow halogen highs. I installed Lasfit T10s into the DRL slots next to high beam, everything looks great.

But then I installed another one of the T10s into the side marker, and when I switched on the running lights it popped a fuse. Lost all running lights (even tails). Took me awhile to troubleshoot the problem back to a blown 10A fuse simply labeled 'Small Light'. Installed halogen side marker back in and it's fine now.

Anybody have issues installing all LEDs in the front housing T10s? I am paranoid to try again now, especially after reading others frying their taillights when upgrading to LED side markers. Not sure if the fact that I had just one LED plugged in made the fuse blow? Any help is appreciated.

-Josh
 

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Just bump that fuse up to 20 and it should cover it,,
Ignore this advise.

LED lamps have a high in rush of current when they first light. It might be possible to use a fuse the right size that is slow to blow, allowing an in rush but still will blow if the continuous load exceeds 10 amps. Using a fuse that has a higher rating that the circuit is designed for could allow the wires or sockets to melt and burn. The oem lamps are not halogen, just regular incandescent. They are not meant to be piercingly bright, just locate the corner to other drivers. If you Google "2010-2014 Honda Insight side marker lamps" there are some leds rated for direct replacement. The Lasfit T10s are pretty thin in the spec department.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks egads. Considered going to a 15A but thought better of it. I thought LEDs were suppose to draw less power than the stock ones? Guess I'm confused as to why 2 sets of small LEDs would be too much for it to handle.
 

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I think the science of inrush current in LED lamps is beyond both of us. One has to have had electrical engineering training to fully understand it. All I know is it effects all lamps, even incandescent ones. But the momentary current on led ones is much higher, even though the continuous load is much smaller.

The stock filament lamps in the side markers are 4.5 watts at 14 volts so I'm not sure one saves much by changing them. Brightness? That's just annoying to others. You don't see them. Even brand new high tech cars only have leds were they do some good.
 

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I have hids ,in my civic ,they keep blowing the fuse,,I have bump up the fuse and never seen any signs of melt down,,am not buying your theory,,
 

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I am an electrician by trade. Circuits are fused to the maximum load they are designed for. This is usually based on the wire size. Amperage is: watts ÷ voltage = amps Because 12 volts is so low the amps climb very fast. I have seen the damage that can happen when a low voltage circuit is shorted. I would never suggest, on an internet message board, over sizing a fuse. This is not theory, it's known science. What you do with your own vehicle is your prerogative. I did suggest a slow blow fuse that might allow for a momentary overload situation. That might get high current in rush LEDs lit and still properly protect the wiring. Keep in mind that we are talking about a hybrid with thousands of dollars worth of electronics that one could fry. Hardly worth it for a side marker light you can't even see when you are driving.
 

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Ignore this advise.

LED lamps have a high in rush of current when they first light. It might be possible to use a fuse the right size that is slow to blow, allowing an in rush but still will blow if the continuous load exceeds 10 amps.
With all due respect, LEDs do NOT have any higher than the normal running current when starting to light.

Wire a LED bulb and a dropping resistor in series with the resistor going to ground.

Connect a dual trace oscilloscope as follows;
1. Connect the ground lead to the resistor ground lead
2. Connect one scope probe to the positive lead of the diode
3. Connect the other scope probe to the negative lead of the diode.

Now apply a positive low frequency square wave to the circuit and compare the two square wave traces. You will see that the negative diode connected trace follows the input square wave trace. The only difference you will see is the voltage drop across the LED.

The LED and resistor have no capacitive or inductive loading of the input signal and therefore can't cause any change in the voltage rise (causing current changes and/or phase shift).

Now if you were to connect a high value capacitor across the resistance you would see an inrush of current as the capacitor charges. And it might be enough current to blow the LED too.

A normal incandescent light bub does have a start up change in current but that is due to the bulb filament changing resistance as it heats up. The resistance is much lower when cold compared to being lit for a few seconds.

I suspect Farmerjosh just overload the 10A fuse with the final installation of more lighting. Try measuring the current without the last addition across the blown fuse to see what the current is with all the other changes are drawing.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Didn't mean to start a fight guys.

I definitely understand why fuses are there and why it's a bad idea to upsize. This isn't theory, as stated. It's science.

It seems like it might be more hassle than it's worth at the moment. I will probably leave the side markers stock, since it seems I'm maxed out there apparently.

Now I have a few extra sets of t10s, maybe I will try them in the license plate lights, rear cargo, and glove box?
 

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Will not hurt to up the fuse,,no way the wire will burn,the wires throughout the car are same size for a 10 amp fuse as its for a 25 amp fuse,,never had a problem with my hids,
 

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I once blew a fuse with a LED because it shorted the T10 connection.
The T10 print board LEDs have large metal contact patches and they short with the prongs that are designed to steady the lamp glass of the small incandescent lamp bulb that was there originally (like in the under door entry lighting of my Insight). As the prongs are also connected to the terminals...
I wouldn't know about the side markers as we don't have them (sadly!)

Then some LEDs are faulty anyway. I always test them with a spare powerdrill battery before I use them in the car.

Properly mounted and functional LEDs do not draw much power. Typically LEDs contain a voltage or current controller that switches the power on and off several times per millisecond. Over a longer period (still talking sub millisecond here) it evens out to way below the current draw of an even bright incandescent bulb. That can't blow any fuse designed for the OEM lamp.

HIDs do temporarily draw more current (or rather, the ballasts do) but then again, so do halogens. The system should be able to cope with the initial extra draw.
My HIDs give of a short flash when switched on, then glow weak for several seconds before gaining brightness up to full blasts within 20 seconds or so. The short flash is way too short to blow the fuse. That's why it doesn't; for almost 6 years running now.

If your fuse blows something is wrong. Don't go bigger but fix the problem.
 

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egads: Again, please do not take my posts here to be an attempt to question your knowledge or abilities. I am only trying to correct several statements you've made that I know to not be correct if taken as you have presented them.

Other people who know very little about electronics may take what you have presented as absolutely correct for any LED involved circuitry.

I will also explain what some of these circuits are doing.

Gee, there sure are a lot of technical papers on LED in rush current issues for it not to exist.
Yes there are a lot of articles describing current inrush for LED lighting systems. But I haven't found any articles or mention of inrush current caused by the LEDs [themselves]. And I've never seen any specs for current inrush caused by LEDs in the data sheets I've used.

As the articles describe, the LED lighting "systems", that are usually designed for higher AC voltages, require EMI filtering etc for the circuitry used to power the low DC voltage LEDs.

AC transformers, diodes etc were used to do that in the past. Now days switching power supplies are used that generate RFI due to the switching speeds and waveforms used.

Each LED inrush article I've found clearly states that the inrush is caused by the capacitors used in EMI filtering and/or boost circuitry. I covered that when I mentioned a capacitor in my original post as a reason why some circuits could show high inrush current (but not due to the LED).

Automotive electrical DC systems run at a higher voltage than the illumination voltage of LEDs so there is no reason to use anything other than a current limiting resistor for the "lights" since there is no EMI etc produced by the LEDs or resistor(s).

To get a more light output from LEDs, circuitry can be used to boost the DC voltage or increase the current by pulsing the voltage or current flow. The "boost" circuit can also produce EMI that then needs to be filtered. But the LEDs themselves are not the source of the inrush current.
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The following are partial quotes from the first two articles I found with a Google search for "LED inrush current".

From:
https://adlt.com.au/%EF%BB%BFled-driver-inrush-currents/

"The lamp inrush current on switching LEDs has become an area of concern in the lighting industry. ‘Inrush current’ of the LED drivers refers to the input current of short duration that flows into the LED driver, during the initial start-up, to charge the capacitors on the input side. Typically, this is a short duration current, whose amplitude is much greater than the operating or steady-state current. The inrush current is due to the EMC filter on the input and bulk capacitor on the boost circuit this is inherent to the LED technology."

The second and last sentences are the important points in this discussion. The input current is due to the capacitor(s) on the EMI filter NOT the LEDs themselves. I covered what happens with a capacitor in the circuit in my 1st post to your comment.
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From: https://www.ametherm.com/blog/inrush-current/inrush-current-protection-led-lighting-retrofits/

"Challenge of High Inrush Current

As with any power supply, the LED Driver contains internal capacitors. For the typical LED Driver, the capacitors charge in less than one millisecond after power is turned on. This rapid charging creates inrush current which can be 100 times the LED driver’s continuous current rating. Compared to older lighting modalities, this is 6 times the inrush current of an incandescent lamp and 4 times the inrush current of the magnetic ballast used in fluorescent lighting.

Legacy electrical services were designed for older lighting modalities which had much lower inrush current. An upgrade to LED lighting can create problems for existing electrical equipment due to the LED driver’s inherent high inrush current. This can result in nuisance faulting of circuit breakers, welding of relay contacts and failure of light dimmers. The installer can be faced with derating the load previously handled by the electrical branch circuit, upgrading existing electrical equipment, or both."

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Summary:
The articles I've seen about "LED lighting" etc are not for automotive low voltage use.

The simple LED, resistor test I outlined will show the LED & resistor current flow as a voltage rise across the current limiting resistor. ( E = I*R )

If there was a sudden higher than running current caused by the LED then the resulting resistor voltage would have to be -higher- than the supply voltage at the current surge ratios mentioned in the above article. My scope shows no voltage (aka current) spikes on the rise time even with positive going square wave drive. The square wave is used as the voltage source represents turning a zero bounce switch ON and OFF continually.
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This quote will explain this long post about "LED inrush current". “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” --Carl Sagan

If you still believe that the LEDs [themselves, not the other circuity in some lights] create high inrush current, please post a credible link that supports the claim.
:cheers-004:
 

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I've taken apart a few LED 'bulbs' for domestic AC use. The mains voltage is way too high for regular LEDs, I wondered what they did to reduce it to the correct range.

That turns out to be one or two capacitors, a diode bridge, a low(ish) resistance resistor to limit peak current and a high resistance resistor to unload the capacitor when switched off.
The capacitors limit the current coming in. The voltage will build up quickly, but when the LEDs get enough voltage they start drawing current which prevents it from getting too high.

Using capacitors makes the current flow precede the voltage. Transformers do the opposite. So if these kind of LED lighting are switched on and off together with other devices, that may cause problems.

It is a particularly bad idea to mix LEDs and fluorescent lamps or TL tubes on one switch, as the pulses the coils of the latter produces raise much more severe than the sinus wave of the AC voltage, so the LEDs may get a short but high burst of current that might damage them.
 
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