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Thanks for your quick reply Mudder.

Your requests:

A: video of start, I'll see if I can coordinate a phone, laptop and key on/start simultaneously! :p
B: $DISP=SCI I can do that, we'll see what is happening there
C: no OBDIIC&C :(
D: no oscilloscope
E: backup starter relay - I can leave that out, at least until I get a no start and I need to get to work!

Thoughts I had overnight:

I did not try to perform another start last night after the no start. In the past I noted that if I immediately tried another start, I usually would get a normal IMA start. I didn't think to try that last night, probably because I was concentrating on collecting and saving data. I will try another start before LiBCM has a chance to reset and see if that works.

Previously you had suggested swapping packs between cars. I'd like to save that for a later step... My back will thank me! Do you think swapping MCM's would provide worthwhile data?

Last - this is not frustrating, I knew that there might be hiccups - Beta tester right?
This little issue doesn't come close to ruining the overall "goodness" of LiBCM!

I don't want this issue to cloud anyone's view of how well this all works. LiBCM + Bulldog/retepsnikrep 40% current hack really transform the car. My previous NiMH packs were "functional" but old. I wanted the 40% hack but figured my marginal batteries wouldn't support the hack very well. Now I have Lithium - these batteries are great!
 

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I've been quiet because of work travel. Back in US and just flashed latest pre-release (May7 I think?). Car loves it, no tweaking at all, in with config.h defaults. The 40% current hack isn't tossing a code under full throttle (it was with April 8th and OBDII/IMA C&C). During the down time it did sit on April 8 release with plug in for several weeks happily.
Based on the data you've posted, LiBCM shouldn't be doing anything to prevent an IMA start.
-LiBCM is meeting timing during keyON IMA start
-Cell voltage is fine during keyON IMA start (or rather attempted start)
-Battery is charged enough.
-Temperature is high enough.
-The IMA system (ECM+MCM+LiBCM) is at least nominally attempting an IMA start.

...

So if it's not LiBCM, then it's either the MCM, the ECM, or one of the wires between the three computers (or IMA motor).

Next troubleshooting steps:
A: Can you upload a video of you starting the car? Ideally showing the laptop screen you're using to gather data with. I want to see if there are any audible inticators.

B: While gathering data in the future, before starting the car, type $DISP=SCI
This will make LiBCM output the BATTSCI and METSCI data in realtime. Please post that data next time the IMA system won't start the car.

C: If you have an OBDIIC&C:
-are there any silent P-codes (i.e. that don't set the CEL)?
-does LiBCM's spoofed pack voltage (the one in parenthesis, e.g. "xxx(172)" ) match OBDIIC&C's reported pack voltage (e.g. 172 volts)? I think I might have already asked you this, but it all blends together.

D: If you have an oscilloscope, can you probe the following signals during keyON start:
CMDPWR (MCM:C02 - BLU/BLK): 0:5 volt PWM @ 2 kHz
MAMOD2 (MCM:A03 - BLK/YEL): 0:5 volt, L=Assist, H=Regen/standby
MAMOD1 (MCM:C12 - RED/YEL): 0:5 volt, PWM @ 20 kHz
QBATT (MCM: D13 - PNK/PNK): 0:5 volt analog output representing battery SoC (to ECM)

E: If possible, keep the Backup Starter Relay removed (unless you need to reinstall it because you get stranded).

...

It is quite strange that only your car is experiencing this issue... if anybody else is seeing this behavior, please let us know. My hunch is that there's some other issue with your IMA system (that for some reason didn't cause problems with the stock BCM).

I'm certain we can get to the bottom of this once we have all the data. Colorado is too far to drive from Tennessee, so if we can't figure this out remotely, then my next suggestion will be to send you a RevD PCB (next month). Another option is I could send you my development RevC PCB right now.

I'm fine with either option... I just want to inconvenience you as little as possible. I'm sure it's frustrating having a car that won't start correctly half the time. Let me know if/when you're not having fun anymore gathering data. And as always, thanks for providing feedback and data during the beta period.
I doubt if this is related, but many changes ago when I first installed my pack in a car I had a no start situation. This car had previously had some goofiness with the 12v starter, but I thought it was fixed. A new board was coming so I removed the pack. Now I’m ready to install it in a different car, but I’m stuck in my recliner dealing with the agonizingly slow process of healing my broken ankle. Like I said, I doubt if my brief no start with no troubleshooting is related but I did get it.
Sam
 

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A few cell voltage data points from my vehicle that has been parked / idle since Friday after work, in case they are of interest. Firmware 0.7.5

Saturday 8:13 AM - H3.652 SoC36 T25C
Saturday 5:47 PM - H3.646 SoC35 T38C <--Happened to notice this matched the ambient temperature at the moment.
Sunday 9:48 AM - H3.640 Soc34 T26C
 

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Up to 5 minutes of frustrating key on and off events before car decides to fire up using IMA. A 12V start would be a treat in these moments. Sometimes pulling IMA fuse under dashboard then replacing lets me start the car. No responses to this are necessary, as I am going to use some of the recommendations above next time I attempt testing on the issue.
I know you said no reply necessary, but I will say that my immediate reaction to what you are describing would point me toward an inspect of all ground wires, but also to a search for electrical shorts.
 

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I didn't think about shorts, possibly while ignition is on the start position. All battery grounds redone with 4ga copper welding cable. Really need to spend some time and commit to legitimately troubleshooting it. Will start a thread once I do and will appreciate input. Have done quite a bit of reading but little work to resolve.
 

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OK, here is another no start file. I changed output to reflect $DISP=SCI, so hopefully that helps. Data dump is attached, and I'll work on uploading the video from my phone next.

I did try turning key to "off" and then trying another start before LiBCM and IMA reset. The result was a normal IMA start!

Hopefully some info to figure out what isn't working on the first attempt. Also good to know that I may not need to be kneeling down in a parking lot to reinsert the back up start relay!
 

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Here is the video that I shot with my phone during the attempt.

Hmm, the video is too large for the forums. Mudder, if you'll send me your email, I'll try to send it to you that way.
 

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Here is the video that I shot with my phone during the attempt.

Hmm, the video is too large for the forums. Mudder, if you'll send me your email, I'll try to send it to you that way.
I wonder if you cycled the key on, waited 5 seconds, cycled key off then back on quickly and started, you would continue to get no start scenarios.
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #509 ·
Previously you had suggested swapping packs between cars. I'd like to save that for a later step... My back will thank me!
I understand... I've removed the pack several dozen times over the past year.
If we do hit a dead end, swapping into another car will be a really useful troubleshooting step.

Do you think swapping MCM's would provide worthwhile data?
Absolutely! Yes, it would be a great next step.
First I would gather the BATTSCI/METSCI data with the existing MCM, so that we can capture that data when the car fails to start.

Last - this is not frustrating, I knew that there might be hiccups - Beta tester right?
This little issue doesn't come close to ruining the overall "goodness" of LiBCM!
I don't want this issue to cloud anyone's view of how well this all works.
Thanks!

LiBCM + Bulldog/retepsnikrep 40% current hack really transform the car.
I couldn't agree more. I could never go back to the power available from a stock car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #510 · (Edited)
OK, here is another no start file. I changed output to reflect $DISP=SCI
Looking at data you collected on this 'no-start' event (items in green are good/expected behavior):

SoC sent to MCM, first 51 seconds: 71.3%
At t=51 seconds, assist occurs.
SoC sent to MCM, rest of drive: 70.9%
(good)

Spoofed Pack Voltage, 1st packet sent to MCM: 142 volts
SpoofedPack Voltage, rest of drive: 148 thru 150 volts
(good)

Temp is always good (good).

LiBCM isn't sending any P-codes to MCM (good).

Assist/Regen limit flags not sent (good).


So overall, LiBCM is sending "all good for IMA start" to the MCM.

...

METSCI B3 packets are sent from MCM to LiBCM.
The first several B3 packets are 0x06 (good)
From ~2.6 to ~4.8 seconds, the B3 packet is 0x00, which means "ignition is off" (incorrect). The MCM thinks the ignition is off for some reason.
After 4.9 seconds, the B3 packet is 0x04 (good), which means "the key is on, and the tachometer is below 1500 rpm (because the IMA isn't starting the engine).

The correct behavior is that the B3 packets start at 0x06, then changes to either 0x04 (tach less than 1500 rpm) or 0x24 (tach above 1500 rpm).

So I believe that the MCM is thinking the ignition is turned off, hence it's not allowing an IMA start.

My first guess would be that there's something wrong with the 12 volt ignition wire (either to the ECM or the MCM)...
...but I don't believe it has anything to do with LiBCM... it's either the ECM or the MCM that is making the decision not to IMA start (probably because one or the other thinks the key has turned off).

So swapping LiBCM probably won't make a difference... the problem will persist in that car.
But swapping the MCM (and later the ECM) would let you know if there's something wrong with the 12 volt signals inside the MCM.

Based on what I know about the IMA system, after looking at this data, I'm quite confident this issue has nothing to do with LiBCM. Maybe @retepsnikrep will have more insights into the METSCI B3 packets... they're still kind of a mystery.

...

When you log future data, take note what the B3 packet is when the car does or does not IMA start.
A successful IMA start should look something like:
Rectangle Product Font Material property Slope

FYI: As shown above, the "last MET B3" packet is the tenth byte sent in the "0x87" BATTSCI frame.

Your most recent failure-to-IMA-start data looks like this:
Product Rectangle Font Material property Parallel
 

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Linsight Designer
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Discussion Starter · #511 ·
Here is the video that I shot with my phone during the attempt.

Hmm, the video is too large for the forums. Mudder, if you'll send me your email, I'll try to send it to you that way.
Can you upload the video to Youtube? My email doesn't allow attachments over 20 MB.
 

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Last year me would have liked that.
For $300, seems like I should just make one out of aluminum extrusion and some bolts.
I just think owning the tool itself is cool. I have only ever used mine once. Keep forgetting it's hanging on the wall in the shop ironically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #516 ·
Building my house certainly taught me that having the right tool makes the job easier.

...

Updates:
-The RevD PCBs will be here ~MAY24
-I am working on a non-insight project until then.
-I'll be on the road MAY14 through MAY22 (i.e. don't expect updates during that time).
 

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Don't know why, but out of all the builds, only 0.7.3 gave me the 1576(12), I skipped 0.7.4 (not from intent, just work travel), and dove right into 0.7.5dALPHA. I really like this one and will likely go back on main branch when changes are merged there. No interest in REVD PCB, but since I have the Nextion 7", happy to jump in that testing, as time allows. Work is crazy :(
 
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Can someone please explain the need for grid charging with LIBCM? I thought the DC-DC would maintain the voltage level and the LIBCM would maintain equal cell voltages.
 

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There is no need, it's satisfying to use heavy assist a number of times before some of the power from the ICE is used for charging. It's possible to quickly consume the grid-charge provided, surplus power storage with A/C on. Background charging plus A/C compressor affects drivability factor. I try to use all the power in the battery, then charge 4, 5, sometimes 6 hours a night. To sum that up: maximizing enjoyment while minimizing stress in rush hour traffic.

Started at 82 SoC, ended at 35 SoC across a 48 mile commute on Friday. (Note: used calpod switch to prevent some regen, and charged 90mV higher than the firmware default)
 

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Discussion Starter · #520 · (Edited)
Older beta code would only balance the cells while grid charging. KeyOFF balancing is enabled by default starting in version 0.7.0.

Grid charging allows you to start each trip with a fully charged battery. Once I add touch screen support, I'll add a "limit regen" mode, which will massively reduce background regen, except while braking. When "limit regen" mode is activated, background regen will be entirely disabled until the battery gets below 20%. This feature will be super useful for those that grid charge after every trip... and also for people that end up installing much larger packs. My goal is to be able to drive around town getting 150 mpg until the battery dies.
 
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