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Hi All:

___When I picked up the Insight 2 weeks ago, I reset the lmpg, both trip A and B, and the FCD segment meters at its first fuel stop … When I fueled in SD, I topped it off where no more fuel could be poured as it was to the edge of the filler neck. That first fueling gave me 923 miles and I topped it off as usual with 9.6376 gallons for a calculated 95.77 mpg. At this point in time, the lifetime only showed 81.4 mpg? The low fuel light was not lit and I still had 2 or three fuel level bars still showing … Temperatures had ranged from the mid 20’s to 61 degrees (that one 61 F afternoon was truly a fluke for a Chicago winter temperature) over this period and I had some great mileage with almost no wind to and from work over a few of those days …

___The Insight’s second fueling tonight was after I had traveled just 770.5 miles and it took 10.946 gallons. I had traveled over 40 miles with 0 bars showing so she was really getting close to the bottom of the tank. This second period and calculation was achieved with temps from the mid teens to low 40’s including yesterdays snow storm and calculated out to just 70.391 mpg yet the mileage shown on my Trip B over this 770.5 mile distance showed 74.4 mpg? Comparing the entire distance and fuel used (1,693.5 miles with 20.5386 gallons of fuel), my lmpg should be much closer to the actual 82.274 lmpg vs. the 75.4 mpg by actual fuel used and distance traveled vs. what it reads currently.

___I understand variances between fillips but in the MDX and Corolla, I have topped off to the neck each and every time and had far less variances in fuel consumed vs. miles traveled then what I am seeing here? How can an actual top off be anything but a top off? The Insight has been fueled at the same station and it was not angled forward, backward, or side to side in any manner that I know of. It is just the lmpg as well as std. mpg readouts aren’t even close? The MDX’s instantaneous fuel readout is always within 1 to 2% locally and has been as far out as 8% when traversing the Rockies … The Insight currently has given me + 17.6% and – 9% for these 2 fillups. I am not disappointed with the actual mpg in the least (especially the first trip) but my lmpg is almost 7 mpg behind the actual and am wondering if most have seen that high a variance with their own Insight’s?

___On a similar but different note, using the iPAQ/i.Trek based GPS in the Corolla and MDX, the actual speed indicated via GPS in comparison to these 2 automobiles speedometers is dead on. The Insight on the other hand is actually 2 to 3 mph high from actual. When traveling an indicated 55 mph, I am actually traveling just 52.x mph. I have brand new Potenza RE92’s at 51#’s but being brand new and an even larger diameter w/ the higher pressure, the Insight should actually show a slower indicated speed vs. actual and this is definitely not the case? This has been reported here in the forum before of course but 2 to 3 mph is a rather large Delta and one that I have been taking into account when traveling at hwy speeds so as to not get run over! In other words, those that travel with the speedometer at a given 50 to 55 are actually traveing at 47.x to 52.x.

___I don’t know how I am ever going to reach 100 + mpg in a single trip (that is a personal goal of mine ;)) but I still have my hopes up that 65 to 75 degree temperatures will let the Insight’s hwy mileage truly shine. It is all over the map currently while watching the instantaneous with an indicated 85 to 95 over a mile or so distance all the while traversing flat ground. 5 miles later, I see just 60 - 75 mpg. Again, over flat terrain and all the while being in lean burn. Could it be the EGR issue giving me fits? It feels very smooth through the lean burn/ NOx purge transition with just a 2 to 3 mph increase in speed so I don’t think that is the culprit? Could it be that magnesium pan is acting as a better heat sink with higher oil temperatures? In other words, a greater Delta T between the actual oil temp and ambient during its 85 - 95 mpg Lean burn mode vs. a few minutes later when the heat is possibly sucked out of her giving the 60- 75 mpg reading? I am just guessing of course but I can see its great lean burn potential with those 85 to 95 mpg readings over 1 to 2 miles and other times the much worse (more normal for Chicago temperatures this time of year) 60 - 75 mpg readouts just a few miles down the road on the same commute. When she drops out of lean burn and I don’t catch it in time (let off the accelerator fast enough), the instantaneous drops to just 50 - 55 mpg which seems about right to me but I only have 2 weeks of experience with her so far.

___Finally, I believe I am doing OK as far as the insight’s mileage is concerned in these cold Chicago temps w/ the 2 warm air mods installed but with the lmpg readout vs. actual being that far out and the high to low mpg lean burn readouts on the same trip just a few miles down the road from each other over flat terrain have me pretty confused? I just hope I didn’t confuse any forum members/readers of this thread with all the run together thoughts directly above.

___Thanks in advance for any and all replies …

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:19n8z0pc][email protected][/email:19n8z0pc]
 

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Wayne,
I bet the previous owner had topped off the overflow tank. I have seen some posts of people who do this but this would explain why your first tank calculated average is so far off the lmpg average. In the second tank which is much closer you probably put gas in much slower toward the end and inadvertently put some in the overflow tank thus the 10.9 gallons. I use the following method. Fill the tank up until the fuel pump cuts off. Then do it one more time but stop at the next cut off. I then drive until all the bars are gone but I don't refuel until my tank mpg (trip B) mileage is 10 times that of the tank mpg. I'll go to 10.3 times max if I don't see a convient gas station. So your second tank with a 74? mpg average should get you 740 - 761 miles easy. I keep a spreadsheet of every fillup and tank average. I have had a few that have had small deviations but most of my manual calculations to trip computer are within 1-2 mpg and the overall average for nearly 100 tanks is less than 1 mpg so I believe the computer mpg values are much more accurate than the fuel guage. Have fun, Rick
 

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evap canister

Keep in mind that there is no "overflow tank". What Rick is referring to is the evaporation canister. It's a cavity filled with activated carbon to absorb evaporative emissions. If you fill that space with gas, you not only risk overflow, but also prohibit it's normal function, i.e. you get far greater evaporative emissions. The activated carbon also takes permanent damage from direct contact with gasoline.

I'd strongly suggest not to overfill your tank !(just like those little signs at the pump and in the manual tell you...) The Insight gives you more range per tank than any other car already. Why push it?
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Hi Armin:

___Not that the charcoal canister can’t be harmed but take a look at the Insight’s Onboard Refueling Vapor Recovery mechanical drawing (the EVAP canister and Vent shut-off valve in particular). Not only is the vent shut off valve inlet piping right at the neck of the Insight’s fuel inlet, it appears to have a ball or float check in it as well. Topping off should not be a problem. As another data point, after 650,000 miles over the last 19 + years, I have yet to have to replace an emission evap canister after topping off and I do it every time. Topping off usually allows me 1 less trip to the station over every 4 or 5 fillups with most other automobiles (the extra 2 minutes at each fill up is worth it imho) but the Insight’s true excess tank capacity probably won’t allow me that luxury ;)

___In the case of the Insight, I went from 40 miles below 0 bars to topped off full on 10.946 gallons which is just a small amount over its listed 10.6 gallon capacity. The pump shutoff actually came at ~ 10.6 gallons. I was actually quite surprised as to how little I can add to top it off. I remember the first Gurnee, IL fill showing similar if not identical activity with only a small amount of fuel that could be added after the first pump shutoff? I wish I could remember the amount of fuel I added after fuel pump shutoff in Sioux Falls, SD when I performed its first fill and reset the meters but I believe it was a lot more past initial pump shutoff thus possibly explaining the extremely high mileage? If the ball check in the vent shut-off fails to seat as you are filling, you would at least fill up the tubes as far as the filler neck in height.

___As another data point(s) for all, the 03 Corolla can hold at least another 2.16 gallons over its 13.2 gallon spec rated tank and the 03 MDX can hold at least another 3.7 gallons over its 19.2 gallon spec rated tank … Both the Corolla and MDX have exceeded 650 miles on a single tank if that helps explain why I top off the tanks on each and every fill. A side benefit is that I know what my actual mileage will be from tank to tank because you can’t fill more or less then topped off … That has been my experience until the Insight anyway?

___Can anyone comment on the instantaneous results I am seeing from the first post above? It bugs me that for a few minutes, I am seeing 85 mpg + and a few minutes later I am seeing 60 - 75 over the course of a few minutes on level pavement? When I drop out of lean-burn, its 50 - 55 mpg but I usually catch it by feel as it happens and let up on the accelerator before she starts to consume that rich mixture for the 6 to 10 seconds it takes to purge the lean-burn NOx CAT? My best two way 185 mile commute was > 85 mpg per Trip A in 40 - 50 degree weather and no wind but this variance is driving me nuts in the slightly to a lot colder temperatures I am seeing now :(

___Thanks in advance and Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3i0x10g4][email protected][/email:3i0x10g4]
 

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"...this variance is driving me nuts..."

Well, I hope they let you use the internet in the asylum :)

But seriously, it does that. Don't know why - things like a slight incline, a bit of a headwind, or even rough pavement all seem to affect the instantaneous mpg. For instance, there's one stretch of road, about 5 miles long and absolutely flat, where I never get more than maybe 60 mpg, where on similar roads I'd expect to see 70-80 bumping up to over 100.

Gremlins, that's it :)
 
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Hi James:

___Thank you for the reply. I am certainly glad it’s not just me that sees the strange variances in the instantaneous display …

___I had a CEL pop up the other day and the local Honda dealer has a new O2 sensor on order … I have heard bad things about the O2 sensor(s) in the Insight even though I have the latest ECM. At least I still have 5 months of bumper to bumper warranty left.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2bfiv9mm][email protected][/email:2bfiv9mm]
 

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What was the trouble code for the sensor, and which one was it, #1 or #2. This information is beneficial to all INSIGHTERS. Please post....TKS.
 
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Hi Willie:

___I had the feeling someone would ask that question. I asked the CSR and he showed me the paperwork with the CEL Code written on it. It was an 11xx (61, 64, 81, 86, ??? … or something similar) but I didn’t write it down because I haven’t had it replaced yet. When the new O2 sensor arrives and I head on back over there, I will post which O2 sensor and the correct code that popped. They did reset it and it’s clear but there must be something to it or they wouldn’t have automatically replaced it. With the latest ECM already installed, I thought the anomalous O2 sensor issues were a thing of the past? I have just past 29,500 miles on her and wasn’t expecting it within 1,700 miles …

___While I was there, I had them take a look at a new wiper insert that was pulling away. They have a new one on order. I had them look at the passenger side skirt because it was not aligning up perfectly. You could move it to a perfect position but it would fall back ~ 1/8” over a mile or so. I also had them look at the front brakes as there was a slight vibration/scratching noise on the pads/rotors when the mechanicals would engage. They are going to resurface them at the time of the O2 replacement. The rep said there was little to no wear and that the tech cleaned up the surfaces. I have never heard of that but they feel normal now. I will take the free resurfacing at the next visit anyway however.

___The 1 item I forgot to have them take a look at is the infamous Drivers side window Auto-Down doesn’t work and both windows appear to be a little slow. I used the “Reset the Relay(s)” procedure (I think Rick wrote up that post) and it worked for a 1 try but it is back to non-Auto down.

___On another and somewhat interesting note that many here may find relevant, I thought I would make a comment about my recent winter driving experience with the Bridgestone RE92’s. Since they are brand new, I have read that fuel economy with brand new tires could be a bit less until they are worn in just a tad. This may or may not be the case and I really couldn’t tell given the wide fluctuations in mileage over the first 1,700 miles. I have also read of the horrible traction they supposedly have during the winter months in snowy/icy conditions also. The item I wanted to add was that in last Sunday’s Snowstorm here in the Chicago area, the Insight handled very well with these tires at 51 #’s. I made it up my 180’ snow covered drive w/ 3 - 4” of fresh snow without nearly a slip of the front wheels. I was actually surprised in fact at how well they performed given the winter horror stories the forum is filled with. The Insight doesn’t handle the snow/slush/ice like the MDX w/ Michelin X-Terrains but I felt confident enough on the road that I wouldn’t change them to something else for winter time use just yet. I have somewhat LRR GY Integrity’s on the 03 Corolla and they are not known for their traction prowess either. I felt the new Bridgestone’s offered superior traction in comparison to them but they only have 4 – 5/32’s left all around so it really wasn’t a fair comparison.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:20o3xbib][email protected][/email:20o3xbib]
 
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