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Discussion Starter #181
It's entirely possible that with the correct tom-foolery the OEM BLAC could briefly handle quite a bit more power.
We know it can do 22kw ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #182
This is a schematic of the basic LTO max power voltage hacking i'm using.

Normally the relay is inactive and the circuit just adds 48V to the actual battery voltage so the IMA operates normally.

When activated by the IMAC&C P&P slave with WOT or whatever level of assist you wish, it fixes the voltages at 120V until released.

85374
 

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Discussion Starter #183 (Edited)
My LTO 48 Cell CVT has the 200A fuse fitted.
So I have been testing +50% amps and the WOT 120V fixed voltage hack.

Confirms what we knew from testing years ago. :)

Starting and assisting the system will tolerate +50% amps.
Giving a peak of 165A at 110V actual battery V under load.
A smidgin over 18kw. (y)

Regen is fine 100A+ until down below the sine/square 2000rpm ish changeover point.
Then it won't tolerate +50% and I can feel the IGBT stuttering and locking out.

So need to make the +45% current hack board to test in the CVT.

My LTO 48 Cell Manual only has 175A fuse fitted. :rolleyes:
So I'm sticking with +40% with that for now which gives a solid WOT 150A x 110V = 16.5kw.
Regen also works well at 90+ amps..

I tried the 120V hack at any assist level (not just WOT), but it wasn't quite as smooth, and I prefer the gratifying kick in the pants WOT full assist kickdown boost activation, so I have reverted to that setting for the Voltage hack part of the system in both cars.

Waiting for some resistors to arrive tomorrow to test the +45% current option.

The only way to go after that is switched resistors for two stage current hacking that only activates when engine rpm > 3000rpm. If you remember we have done that before many years ago.. +40% below 3000rpm. +50/60% above 3000rpm.. It worked well. :devilish:
 

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I have very much enjoyed following this process. I have an itching question. Please excuse the interjection.

Might this new 120V fixed/+48 configuration be effectively switched in some manner other than deploying the full C&C P&P setup?
 

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Discussion Starter #185 (Edited)
Might this new 120V fixed/+48 configuration be effectively switched in some manner other than deploying the full C&C P&P setup?
Yes, if you have the skills etc.
Design yourself something to work off the throttle pot signal.
Program a tiny pic to watch the throttle pot signal and switch in the hack at WOT.
You could use the same control signal for the current hack switching as well if you didn't want +40% all the time.

Be aware though if you leave the stock ECM in charge of the actual assist you will be at it's mercy as regards level and duration. So with hacks switched in you will get more power but often not full power or for very long.. IMAC&C P&P etc overrides all those restrictions. ;)

I've designed it to work with stuff I'm already familiar with and use daily.
Lots of people have an OBDIIC&C, and lots of people also have IMAC&C P&P..
 

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I think the 'BCM Interceptor' or 'BCM Replacer' will do the job.
Does Atheos have a BCM Interceptor programmed to help?
People with lithium who don't have the 'BCM Replacer' really should have a 'BCM Interceptor' as a minimum.
I don't know how this thread escaped my attention until now, but here I am catching up.
I do have a BCM Interceptor (and a Replacer, I have all the Peter Perkins goodies), but I'm not currently using either of them.
My daily driver setup is the 60 cell LTO with stock BCM/MCM and a OBDIIC&C for monitoring. It's been flawless thus far, and has more power than I need. That's part of the reason why I suspect a 48-cell will suffice for my needs.

I just acquired (22 days ago) a 2000 M/T that I'm planning on making into my new daily driver. (giving the Citrus as it is to one of my kids) My new Silver M/T is going to the body shop next week for repairs and preparation (primer) for paint, and I'm very interested in a 48-cell LTO setup. In fact, I just ordered 3 battery packs today (gotta have another spare at these prices) for the car and I'm going to use my BMC Replacer and do the 40% assist/regin mod.

ALL THAT SAID - I have a strong freshly rebuilt IMA that I'll be throwing to the marketplace (including a charger and cables) to fund my IMA interest. If anyone near Tennessee/Kentucky/Indiana has any interest in it - send me a message and it can be delivered.

I'm highly impressed with the case mod Peter, I'm going to start working at modifying one of my spare IMA cases tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter #187 (Edited)
I think at this point I should summarise and draw a few 48 Cell LTO conclusions. :geek:

Thanks to all those who have followed the thread and contributed, questioned, donated and postulated.

1) Both my G1 cars are now running the +48V voltage following 48 cell LTO mod. 1x CVT 1x MT
2) Both have a minimum +40% current hack and 175A fuse.
3) Both have the 120V WOT max power voltage hack.
4) Both give IMA power in excess of 15kw when demanded.
5) Both cars have a full suite of my gadgets including, IMAC&C P&P, BCM Interceptor, BCM Fooler, OBDIIC&C LTO CAN, Current Hack, Voltage Hack.
6) Both cars are using the LTO BMS to display voltage data via the OBDIIC&C.
7) Both cars have the OEM switchboard safely mounted in the stock position with the modified case also retaining it's OEM mounts.
8) Everything fits securely inside the IPU with the BCM/MCM etc on the OEM bracket in the correct positions.

Good points. :)

1) Safety.
2) Ease of pack fitment/construction.
3) Light weight.
4) Cheaper cost (less packs). About $530 US delivered at current GreenTec pricing for 48 cells.
5) 2.5x Wh capacity compared to OEM Nimh.
6) Improved power, performance, mpg and battery efficiency.

Bad points. :(

1) You need a decent budget, good skills, time and resources to do any sort of Lithium conversion.
It's not for every owner. It makes the car an even greater fun enthusiast vehicle, but is not a fit and forget solution for 'Joe Public' yet IMO. Maybe with longer term testing.......

2) The lower power square/sine changeover rpm zone is slightly annoying for the MT.
The current/voltage hacks do ameliorate this to a large degree by giving much more power either side of the zone.
The CVT is not really affected as it spends so little time in this zone when accelerating and assist is being demanded.

3) Upwards voltage hacking to fool the car systems is more tricky than downwards voltage fooling.

My personal recommendations at this time. :cool:

1) LTO (Lithium) is great, go for it and get some packs while you can.
2) It's a very close run thing, but if you can make it all fit safely then 72 cells seems like the voltage sweet spot, especially for a MT car.
Easier system hacking, no lower power zone, more potential ultimate power 20kw+, more Wh capacity.
3) 48 Cell LTO is also a good choice, especially if you're on a slimmer budget, and certainly for the CVT it's neck and neck with 72 cell.
4) I won't be going back to NIMH anytime soon unless it's for research purposes! ;)

Anyway enough rambling.

I'm still tinkering round the edges with mods and will update if anything significant changes.

The packs pleasingly naturally keep well charged, as the lower system voltage gives the IMA motor more regen headroom. Unfortunately long distance road testing hasn't been possible as we know, so you will have to wait for a holiday road trip report in due course. (y)
 

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Nice summary and GREAT work! With my MT, I favor the 72 as you say, but the 48 is head and shoulders better than living with NiMH IMO. Both conversions restore the hope of long term battery reliability, a huge plus for dedicated long term owners.
 

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These are probably dumb questions...
Which circuit boards are absolutely required for a 48 cell conversion?

Let's say someone who knows nothing about Insights, but can drive a standard-transmission car, hops into a 48 cell converted lithium car. Are they going to have any unexpected troubles while driving?

Is it known if there are issues with 2005/2006 model year because of ECM differences?
 

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Discussion Starter #193 (Edited)
Which circuit boards are absolutely required for a 48 cell conversion?
1) A BCM fooler to provide equal taps for the BCM.

2) The internal MCM mods to fool the voltage systems. (There is no ready made board for this yet.)

This is my current minimal MCM mods schematic omitting the extra power hacks.

85464


Are they going to have any unexpected troubles while driving?
Possibly. Testing has been very limited due to the current driving restrictions. Things may turn up later.

If you go for a real minimal install with no BCM interceptor, no current hacks, no IMAC&C P&P, no OBDIIC&C to watch what's going on etc then there is a danger you could over or under charge the blocks/cells.

With the gadgets you or they can act to prevent damage by enabling/disabling stuff.
IMO You need a calpod switch as a minimum to offer some control over assist/regen on earlier cars.

Note. The calpod switch cannot disable high rpm natural charging that takes place due to the lower pack voltage. Only the BCM Interceptor or IMAC&C P&P can do that.

Is it known if there are issues with 2005/2006 model year because of ECM differences?
Unlikely apart from Calpod clutch switch not working on latter cars. The ECM doesn't really impact much.
However differences in programming of all the various modules due to the year might throw up issues later.

I don't recommend a minimal 48 cell LTO pack as an unmonitored and uncontrolled fit and forget solution at this time.
 

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Let me start by saying that it's been pretty amazing watching all the cool hacking that's been going on to coax the car to run on a LTO pack that's a much easier fit into the IMA compartment.

I have a question about current consumption on the low end of the battery voltage.

Both give IMA power in excess of 15kw when demanded
Based on some some specs on the web I'll assume the low voltage point of each cell is 1.8V before you have to start charging to avoid cell damage. If we use the perhaps overly simply P=IV formula to calculate current, that works out to about 173 amps for 15 kW output for 48 cells. At 2V/cell it works out to 156 amps.

if a stock insight develops 10 kW at 120V (the minimum voltage IIRC before it backs off) then the current, calculated using P=IV, works out to 83 amps.

In other words it appears that if you demand full assist at lower battery voltages you are doubling the amount of current (~80A vs ~160A) flowing through the motor.

I am assuming internal losses are proportional to current. Is this a valid assumption?

If so, those tend to show up as heat?

Is there a risk of motor damage running full assist on a hot day or at high altitude? we have a few places like this here and many on the west coast.

Do we have a way to test this on the bench? (i.e. drive a motor to failure under carefully controlled conditions) or has this already been done?
 

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If you go for a real minimal install with no BCM interceptor, no current hacks, no IMAC&C P&P, no OBDIIC&C to watch what's going on etc then there is a danger you could over or under charge the blocks/cells.
Is a BMS like the Orion BMS needed if you want to protect your investment from a runaway cell?
 

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Discussion Starter #196
Sean. I advise searching on here and reading up on LTO, CAN, OBDIIC&C. You seem to have missed a ton of stuff.
There are loads of in depth discussions and threads about them and control systems/ bms/issues etc.
Most threads will be in the G1 modifications and technical issues sub forum.

In other words it appears that if you were go demand full assist at lower battery voltages you are doubling the amount of current (~80A vs ~160A) flowing through the motor.
Correct yes. W = I x V.

There is always a small risk of damaging the motor with long periods of use in hot environments.
It has no temperature sensing, thermal protection or active cooling. However they are cheap and plentiful as they never go wrong in normal use.

No one has tested a motor to failure or actually destroyed one with use at higher/power or currents asfaik. I don't live in Arizona..

You can use an Orion2 BMS if you want or use a an LTO CAN OBDIIC&C to monitor individual cell voltages and do the balancing yourself. They don't need much..
 

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If you go for a real minimal install with no BCM interceptor, no current hacks, no IMAC&C P&P, no OBDIIC&C to watch what's going on etc then there is a danger you could over or under charge the blocks/cells.
I'm not sure I see how lack of current hack or IMAC&C P&P does anything to endanger a pack in any way. Seems they would rather endanger an unmonitored pack if used injudiciously??
 

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Discussion Starter #198
I'm not sure I see how lack of current hack or IMAC&C P&P does anything to endanger a pack in any way. Seems they would rather endanger an unmonitored pack if used injudiciously??
My error typing not thinking.
The IMAC&C P&P can help prevent issues by countermanding ECM requests.
So if you don't have it that's one weapon less in your control armoury.
 

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Discussion Starter #199 (Edited)
So a final 48 Cell LTO update before I take the packs out of the two cars and move on..

I've finally had a chance to do some longer drives and road testing recently.

Although it works the flat spot (feature) in the rpm dead zone is annoying me on the manual car.

I expect it might also annoy me with the CVT car later.
Not so much because of the feel, which is less noticeable than with the manual, but because I know it's there!
I'm also subtly and not so subtly adjusting my driving style trying to compensate for it.

One of my mechanic friends also drove it (the manual) and he thought it had something wrong with it. :(
He hadn't been briefed about it, but said it doesn't do anything then surges ahead like a turbo spinning up.

So although you can ameliorate the effects with current hacks, IMAC&C P&P, and manual intervention I think long term it will really irritate as you strive to keep the effect to a minimum.

Clearly it's a quirk of the low voltage and the Honda system. :(

It probably would not be present with a different motor controller that didn't have this drive signal change anomaly.

So in conclusion with 48 cells we learnt.

It does work with the rpm dead zone limitation. :)

It requires more complicated electronic fooling. :(

The IMA motor can start the engine and operate at this lower voltage. :)

It can deliver high assist power even with a low voltage and regen is very strong. :)

The DC-DC had no issues with the lower voltage. :)

It's light safe and physically reasonably easy to install. :)

But having said all that...

I would not recommend it due to the compromised IMA function at low rpm when the engine needs the most help.

It's almost like the car is neither one thing or the other now.
It's not got IMA when you want it, and then has more than standard when you don't!

Do I regret trying? Of course not it's been very interesting and pushing our knowledge forward.

Anyway you will see a new thread about a 96 cell pack has sprung up so lets see how that works out.

PS

Anyone got 3 or 4 LTO Fit block busbars and plastic clip on covers they can pop in the post to me in the UK please?

Let me know price inc postage.
 

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Well, it advanced the understanding of options. Thanks for the hard work.:)
 
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