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@IamIan do you remember when working with the developer to make the LTO preset if there was ever a point where your device would test a preset they handed you before the device firmware got updated? I've been poking around the various versions of the CCS (PL8, dual, PL6, PL8 touch, etc) and the only one that actually has a firmware update that adds LTO is the PL8 non touch. To me this makes sense why your preset doesn't work on the other devices because it specifically says the chemistry is "LTO" and to the device this is invalid. That being said I'm trying to find out if there is a "generic" chemistry (maybe this is empty in the dropdown?) that any device would understand and perhaps run without a firmware update. I don't really see any safety stuff for any chemistry that isn't in the preset file that would be only in firmware especially when you flip developer mode on. Basically if at some point they handed you a preset file to run before any of the new firmware were installed on your PL8 this would hint towards there is a generic mode somewhere.

Even beyond @AmpLee trying to get his dual working having a fully generic charger with automation and data logging would be valuable to have and I'd consider purchasing one, but only if it's fully generic and can handle whatever new chemistries come out in the future. Being locked into Lipo, Lifepo4, LTO, NiCd, and a few others isn't future proof (likely that's the point it requires you to buy a new device whenever that happens). My variable power supply and load tester is fully generic and cheap but it doesn't automate and doesn't data log. I only find those two features mildly helpful but it still helps a bit to the point where I'd consider getting one on ebay. The preset files have a ton of safety dropdowns that to me should cover all the bases for current and future chemistries without a firmware update when flipping on developer mode for myself but I'd need to find a generic chemistry mode which is why I ask if you ever were handed a file to run during testing before the firmware on your device was actually updated.
 

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I looked at the firmware binaries in the code for the CCS and they are different so no I don't think they are interchangeable. For instance version 1.10 for the dual is where they added LiHV which happened at firmware 3.32 on the single. Those binaries are quite different size wise and content wise so I really doubt they can be interchangeably installed.

As far as the chemistry data I guess I was mistaken to think that the fields in the presets were the chemistry data (charge/discharge methods, voltages, etc.), the preset data is quite comprehensive especially when you turn on developer mode I wonder what additional is in the firmware that isn't in the preset. It also makes it so it isn't a generic programmable charger and they have to make changes for every new battery type that comes along (though perhaps FMA views it as a way to make money).

@AmpLee I did take Ian's preset and at least flip it so it passes the dual's checksum. You can give the two below (one with empty chemistry and one with unknown chemistry) a try but I suspect that neither will run similar to Jim trying to run "LTO" chemistry without the 3.35 firmware update. If for whatever miracle either of these do run watch it like a hawk to make sure it's behaving correctly in a safe environment. It has all the same safety parameters as Ian's preset but without the firmware it shouldn't be left alone. Likely it won't matter and the device won't run the preset.

As for paying FMA $1000 for them to add to the dual what they already were paid for by Ian for the single seems ridiculous to me. Essentially the dual doesn't have the 3 latest firmware updates (3.33, 3.34, and 3.35 (the LTO update). Keeping their stuff up to date was promised in the manual and the dual and likely the non touch pl8's going forward seem to be abandoned.

Rename below to a .zip extension and unzip the two presets to try.
So the update from FMA is they are giving up on the DPL8 as far as updating it ever. They offered to refurbish a PL8 unit at a bit of a discount. It's probably a pretty good deal and I'll still be able to use the beefy power supply. Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing.

Thanks for looking into the coding. I don't think the new .ps8 will work on the software as I'm still getting the other error codes that I suspect are contigent on a firmware to fix.
 

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So the update from FMA is they are giving up on the DPL8 as far as updating it ever. They offered to refurbish a PL8 unit at a bit of a discount. It's probably a pretty good deal and I'll still be able to use the beefy power supply. Not a perfect solution, but better than nothing.

Thanks for looking into the coding. I don't think the new .ps8 will work on the software as I'm still getting the other error codes that I suspect are contigent on a firmware to fix.
Not a problem, given the lack of updates over the last few years it definitely looks like the whole line including the newer touch models is abandoned. Hopefully they give you more than a little discount. Depending on Ian's answer I might pick up one to see if I can make it general purpose in developer mode but unless you sell your dual for quite cheap it'd probably be less expensive for me to just pick up a PL6 on ebay since they dip down under $100 sometimes (especially since I'm not 100% I'll be able to do what I want). I would think you'll be able to sell your dual without the power supply for quite a bit more on ebay.

As for the dual CCS in non developer mode not pushing the preset file that isn't surprising. I thought from Jime before that it would copy to device but then just not run but maybe I was wrong. I wonder then with developer mode CCS if it will push to device regardless of what it feels are "errors" (which would allow me to use the dual or PL6 despite non upgraded firmware.
 

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I wonder then with developer mode CCS if it will push to device regardless of what it feels are "errors" (which would allow me to use the dual or PL6 despite non upgraded firmware.
To directly answer your inquiry .. as far as I know .. even in full developer version .. a safety error will still stop it .. although .. With full developer version .. one can define what the safeties are or are not .. one can create any custom battery chemistry preset one wishes .. but .. that full developer version is not free .. they restrict distribution and they charge $$ for it.

@IamIan do you remember when working with the developer to make the LTO preset if there was ever a point where your device would test a preset they handed you before the device firmware got updated?
no.

I got one update at the end (firmware & preset) .. there was no 'try this' , or 'try that' type of thing .. we discussed what I wanted , and reviewed various charge / discharge test data from myself and from Toshiba.

Prior to contacting them .. I did create a 'fake' LTO preset based on modifying other OEM chemistry presets , in order to do the initial testing charge/discharge/etc testing of LTO cells .. I did that under PL8v2 firmware v3.34 .. so , it was before the 3.35v firmware I got from them .. but .. that isn't something they gave me to use for LTO.

I've been poking around the various versions of the CCS (PL8, dual, PL6, PL8 touch, etc) and the only one that actually has a firmware update that adds LTO is the PL8 non touch.
That makes sense .. It's the version I use .. the one I worked with them to get LTO for.

And .. they told me from the beginning that .. they just don't yet see a big enough demand in their normal customer base for LTO .. soo as long as they continue to not see a big demand for LTO , I don't expect them to be doing much with it .. even for newer hardware that they come out with.

That being said I'm trying to find out if there is a "generic" chemistry (maybe this is empty in the dropdown?) that any device would understand and perhaps run without a firmware update.
Not that I know of.

I don't really see any safety stuff for any chemistry that isn't in the preset file that would be only in firmware especially when you flip developer mode on.
Here are a few ways you can see some of those safeties in action .. even if you don't see them actually specified in the preset .. in the firmware for a preset , not in the preset itself.

Try to make a preset for any Li chemistry .. to use the NiMH style -dV/dT for charge termination .. there is nothing in the preset that says you can't , but the safeties in place (which live in the firmware) for all the Li family of battery chemistry presets , will all flag that as an error .. and those safeties (which live in the firmware) will stop you from using that charge termination method .. you can create the preset , but it will error and will not run.

Or .. go under NiMH and try to tell it to use CC/CV charge termination .. again .. nothing in the preset tells it it can't .. but it will violate the safeties in place (in the firmware) for NiMH presets and ..thus you get errors .. and it will not do it.

Now .. if one had the full developer version of the software .. then one can see all those safeties as well .. heck one can change it so NiMH does not get an error using CC/CV charge termination .. or remove the error for using -dV/dT for Li batteries .. etc .. but .. that is $$$ and access is restricted.

Basically if at some point they handed you a preset file to run before any of the new firmware were installed on your PL8 this would hint towards there is a generic mode somewhere.
nope .. no such thing happened.

And no such generic mode exists as far as I know .. although .. someone with the full developer version could create one .. but again , I don't have that full developer version .. $$$ and restricted access.

Even beyond @AmpLee trying to get his dual working having a fully generic charger with automation and data logging would be valuable to have and I'd consider purchasing one, but only if it's fully generic and can handle whatever new chemistries come out in the future.
Well .. you could always ask them to create such a generic preset for you .. but .. that gets back into paying for a custom preset .. and .. in reguards to a generic .. I'd expect them to be a bit concerned about the liability of someone who didn't know exatly what they were doing , using such a generic (no safety limits) preset .. one that doesn't stop someone from discharging a LiPo battery to 0.7v per cell , or charging to 33v per cell , etc.

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Just an FYI .. It isn't the device I happen to use myself .. but as far as I know , currently the main 'competitor' to the PL8 in , the high end "hobby level" of battery testers market is the "icharger" .. see link bellow .. although , sense I don't use that one myself .. I don't know if you would have any better luck with it .. nor can I help with it's operation.

 

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To directly answer your inquiry .. as far as I know .. even in full developer version .. a safety error will still stop it .. although .. With full developer version .. one can define what the safeties are or are not .. one can create any custom battery chemistry preset one wishes .. but .. that full developer version is not free .. they restrict distribution and they charge $$ for it.



no.

I got one update at the end (firmware & preset) .. there was no 'try this' , or 'try that' type of thing .. we discussed what I wanted , and reviewed various charge / discharge test data from myself and from Toshiba.

Prior to contacting them .. I did create a 'fake' LTO preset based on modifying other OEM chemistry presets , in order to do the initial testing charge/discharge/etc testing of LTO cells .. I did that under PL8v2 firmware v3.34 .. so , it was before the 3.35v firmware I got from them .. but .. that isn't something they gave me to use for LTO.


That makes sense .. It's the version I use .. the one I worked with them to get LTO for.

And .. they told me from the beginning that .. they just don't yet see a big enough demand in their normal customer base for LTO .. soo as long as they continue to not see a big demand for LTO , I don't expect them to be doing much with it .. even for newer hardware that they come out with.


Not that I know of.


Here are a few ways you can see some of those safeties in action .. even if you don't see them actually specified in the preset .. in the firmware for a preset , not in the preset itself.

Try to make a preset for any Li chemistry .. to use the NiMH style -dV/dT for charge termination .. there is nothing in the preset that says you can't , but the safeties in place (which live in the firmware) for all the Li family of battery chemistry presets , will all flag that as an error .. and those safeties (which live in the firmware) will stop you from using that charge termination method .. you can create the preset , but it will error and will not run.

Or .. go under NiMH and try to tell it to use CC/CV charge termination .. again .. nothing in the preset tells it it can't .. but it will violate the safeties in place (in the firmware) for NiMH presets and ..thus you get errors .. and it will not do it.

Now .. if one had the full developer version of the software .. then one can see all those safeties as well .. heck one can change it so NiMH does not get an error using CC/CV charge termination .. or remove the error for using -dV/dT for Li batteries .. etc .. but .. that is $$$ and access is restricted.


nope .. no such thing happened.

And no such generic mode exists as far as I know .. although .. someone with the full developer version could create one .. but again , I don't have that full developer version .. $$$ and restricted access.


Well .. you could always ask them to create such a generic preset for you .. but .. that gets back into paying for a custom preset .. and .. in reguards to a generic .. I'd expect them to be a bit concerned about the liability of someone who didn't know exatly what they were doing , using such a generic (no safety limits) preset .. one that doesn't stop someone from discharging a LiPo battery to 0.7v per cell , or charging to 33v per cell , etc.

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Just an FYI .. It isn't the device I happen to use myself .. but as far as I know , currently the main 'competitor' to the PL8 in , the high end "hobby level" of battery testers market is the "icharger" .. see link bellow .. although , sense I don't use that one myself .. I don't know if you would have any better luck with it .. nor can I help with it's operation.

Thanks for the detailed reply! One quick follow up with your termination charge error that the firmware gave was the preset all loaded to the device fine and dandy and the device itself threw the error or was it the update to device from the CCS that throws the error never even allowing the preset to get to the device? Basically those safeties were they shown in CCS when you clicked update or run, or did it get to the device fine and it was actually the device itself that throws the error anytime you select it.

The reason I ask is I was able to get access to all the developer properties in CCS (beyond the advanced properties the actual developer options under each of the tabs in the preset). Whatever CCS can do I can do, but if the actual firmware on device will complain there is nothing I can do about that. I'm sure the developer options CCS can likely push the preset to device even if there are "errors" but if the firmware will still complain it doesn't matter meaning even with developer CCS it won't work. I realize you never had developer CCS and wouldn't know if not having developer properties matters I'm just trying to ascertain if the error happened when hitting update in CCS or if it actually happened on device from the firmware. If it happened in CCS then it might work, if it happened on device it definitely won't work even if I find a generic chemistry.

While I don't own an icharger, I am aware of them. From what I've seen they employ a similar model and I haven't seen anyone just develop a generic balance charger/discharger hence why I'm stuck with a variable power supply, bms, and generic load tester for my tests. The automation isn't that important to me, I actually find it quicker not automated because you charge/discharge in parallel but the data logging is nice with the graphs rather than me just recording the results. When I look at the developer options in CCS there is a ton of stuff and seems pretty generic that when looking at any future cell datasheet you would be able to add it yourself without needing an update safely (provided obviously you enter in the data right), but FMA and icharger seem to both not allow that and you have to wait on them for an update that may or may not come.
 

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Thanks for the detailed reply! One quick follow up with your termination charge error that the firmware gave was the preset all loaded to the device fine and dandy and the device itself threw the error or was it the update to device from the CCS that throws the error never even allowing the preset to get to the device? Basically those safeties were they shown in CCS when you clicked update or run, or did it get to the device fine and it was actually the device itself that throws the error anytime you select it.

The reason I ask is I was able to get access to all the developer properties in CCS (beyond the advanced properties the actual developer options under each of the tabs in the preset). Whatever CCS can do I can do, but if the actual firmware on device will complain there is nothing I can do about that. I'm sure the developer options CCS can likely push the preset to device even if there are "errors" but if the firmware will still complain it doesn't matter meaning even with developer CCS it won't work. I realize you never had developer CCS and wouldn't know if not having developer properties matters I'm just trying to ascertain if the error happened when hitting update in CCS or if it actually happened on device from the firmware. If it happened in CCS then it might work, if it happened on device it definitely won't work even if I find a generic chemistry.

While I don't own an icharger, I am aware of them. From what I've seen they employ a similar model and I haven't seen anyone just develop a generic balance charger/discharger hence why I'm stuck with a variable power supply, bms, and generic load tester for my tests. The automation isn't that important to me, I actually find it quicker not automated because you charge/discharge in parallel but the data logging is nice with the graphs rather than me just recording the results. When I look at the developer options in CCS there is a ton of stuff and seems pretty generic that when looking at any future cell datasheet you would be able to add it yourself without needing an update safely (provided obviously you enter in the data right), but FMA and icharger seem to both not allow that and you have to wait on them for an update that may or may not come.
If there's anything you want me to test on the DPL8, I'm happy to do so. I just assumed since there were still parameter errors that your presets wouldn't load onto the machine, but I'm happy to try something if you think there may be a way around it.
 

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If there's anything you want me to test on the DPL8, I'm happy to do so. I just assumed since there were still parameter errors that your presets wouldn't load onto the machine, but I'm happy to try something if you think there may be a way around it.
If you wouldn't mind trying those two preset files to see if they run, it would be appreciated. If they do start, either watch it closely (don't leave unattended) or stop it after it starts as I'm just trying to ascertain if the errors prevent the device from starting. If it fails or throws an error let me know if its the charge control software that has the error or if it gets to the device but then the device firmware throws the error.
 

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I realize you never had developer CCS and wouldn't know if not having developer properties matters I'm just trying to ascertain if the error happened when hitting update in CCS or if it actually happened on device from the firmware.
Happens in CCS when one tries to select a invalid change .. before the preset goes to PL8.

Normal CCS will not update PL8 with a preset that still has errors .. Sense I have no way to get a preset with errors into a PL8 .. I have no idea what the PL8 itself would do with one loaded into it.

The reason I ask is I was able to get access to all the developer properties in CCS (beyond the advanced properties the actual developer options under each of the tabs in the preset). Whatever CCS can do I can do, but if the actual firmware on device will complain there is nothing I can do about that.
I'm sure the developer options CCS can likely push the preset to device even if there are "errors" but if the firmware will still complain it doesn't matter meaning even with developer CCS it won't work.
?? I do not know how to reconcile that ??

The only time I had contact with someone who had been given by FMA the full developer's version .. that person was able to do things you say you still can't do.

such as :
Make new / updated firmware versions .. which they did .. with the 3.35v

Alter the safeties of exiting presets/profiles .. or make a brand new preset/profile from scratch including or not including any safeties they wished.

the data logging is nice with the graphs rather than me just recording the results.
You could use a data exporting multi-meter to do the data logging part with your bench load and supply.
 

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If you wouldn't mind trying those two preset files to see if they run, it would be appreciated. If they do start, either watch it closely (don't leave unattended) or stop it after it starts as I'm just trying to ascertain if the errors prevent the device from starting. If it fails or throws an error let me know if its the charge control software that has the error or if it gets to the device but then the device firmware throws the error.
I don't think it's possible for the pl8 to work with errors in the preset files. It won't let me save/load these files into the machine until I fix the errors.
 

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I don't think it's possible for the pl8 to work with errors in the preset files. It won't let me save/load these files into the machine until I fix the errors.
Ok so it's the charge control software that's holding you back not the device. That's promising that it's not the device, let me make some changes and I'll try to make another pair tonight.
 

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Happens in CCS when one tries to select a invalid change .. before the preset goes to PL8.

Normal CCS will not update PL8 with a preset that still has errors .. Sense I have no way to get a preset with errors into a PL8 .. I have no idea what the PL8 itself would do with one loaded into it.




?? I do not know how to reconcile that ??

The only time I had contact with someone who had been given by FMA the full developer's version .. that person was able to do things you say you still can't do.

such as :
Make new / updated firmware versions .. which they did .. with the 3.35v

Alter the safeties of exiting presets/profiles .. or make a brand new preset/profile from scratch including or not including any safeties they wished.


You could use a data exporting multi-meter to do the data logging part with your bench load and supply.
There are two things in play here one is CCS (which has a developer and non developer flag within the program) and then the firmware that runs on the device itself. The person you've interacted obviously has both the developer flag set in CCS but also has the source code for the firmware and can modify that source code. I'm not currently sure if having the developer flag set in CCS but not having the source code for the firmware is useful or not. If the preset got to the device but then the device wouldn't run it, that combination would not be useful but both of you seem to indicate that it's actually CCS that holds you up at least so far and that it actually isn't making it to the device. Perhaps if I flip the validated flag it'll actually make it to device with errors, or perhaps if the developer flag is flipped in CCS it'll push it even if it has errors (remember that all 6 "errors" in old CCS from your preset are actually not errors for LTO they are correct values). I should know more later tonight. It's at least not a hard no like it would of been if it made it to device but then the device complained.

As far as the multimeter goes, I don't think I know of one where you could tell it what voltages map to SOC and other specific battery parameters for it to make those graphs. Obviously, you could hand make the graphs yourself but it gets rid of automation. If this goes well I'll likely be getting a used PL6 since they go under $100 from time to time on ebay but who knows maybe the device will still complain even if I can make CCS push to device with errors, we'll see. If that's the case it isn't a generic programmable charger/discharger which limits it's usefulness to me.
 

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As far as the multimeter goes, I don't think I know of one where you could tell it what voltages map to SOC and other specific battery parameters for it to make those graphs. Obviously, you could hand make the graphs yourself but it gets rid of automation.
The meter (sensor) to pc is just a data input device .. you don't have to make the graph or translations by hand .. in the PC a macro in a spread sheet program can automate the translation of that volts/amps/time .. into whatever you want .. Ah / Wh / SoC / SoE / Ohms / NomV / CycleEfficiency / etc.

yes , it is nice some of that coding is already done with the PL6 / PL8 .. and that's one reason I use it .. but .. If needed , there are also other roads that get to the same place.
 

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I don't think it's possible for the pl8 to work with errors in the preset files. It won't let me save/load these files into the machine until I fix the errors.
So I spent some time with this tonight and I'm 99% sure that only the Charge Control Software does most of the validations. So in theory if you can get it to the device it should run. The bad news is that even developer mode doesn't bypass the error checks. I do think I have a way around this but there is a risk of unexpected behavior and possibly even bricking the device so I will probably pick up a PL6 over the next few months to test that out. Every month or so someone sells one on ebay for under $100 so I'll likely wait for one to pop up. Given how detailed the presets and error checking is in the Charge control software I very much doubt they do it again on device, likely they just do a checksum test and then run.

For the time being the only way to even get it to device would be to find a chemistry where the values don't throw errors but there would be some compromises then. I think the chemistry that had the lowest errors with LTO values was 2 errors and that it required switching it from CCCV charging to CC, termination from lithium to reaching charge voltage, and one other parameter switch that I don't recall right now. Not sure if you want that or if you are already getting that refurbished PL8V2 or not.
 

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So I spent some time with this tonight and I'm 99% sure that only the Charge Control Software does most of the validations. So in theory if you can get it to the device it should run. The bad news is that even developer mode doesn't bypass the error checks. I do think I have a way around this but there is a risk of unexpected behavior and possibly even bricking the device so I will probably pick up a PL6 over the next few months to test that out. Every month or so someone sells one on ebay for under $100 so I'll likely wait for one to pop up. Given how detailed the presets and error checking is in the Charge control software I very much doubt they do it again on device, likely they just do a checksum test and then run.

For the time being the only way to even get it to device would be to find a chemistry where the values don't throw errors but there would be some compromises then. I think the chemistry that had the lowest errors with LTO values was 2 errors and that it required switching it from CCCV charging to CC, termination from lithium to reaching charge voltage, and one other parameter switch that I don't recall right now. Not sure if you want that or if you are already getting that refurbished PL8V2 or not.
I appreciate you looking into all this. I ended up purchasing the refurbished unit for $140. Not a huge discount, but I can start to focus on other aspects of the solar build, namely wiring.

Since the cells all appear to be matching voltage-wise, I may just take a chance and bring all modules to the same state of charge instead of doing cell level capacity testing (then just test the cell voltages to make sure they still match). I was really pushing for that capacity testing because I have a month warranty on the modules which will expire long before I get a PL8 up and running. Once the modules are installed with the BMSs for overcharge and overdischarge and running in the system, I'll do periodic voltage tests and remove any modules that have issues and use the PL8V2 to do cell level diagnosis. The way the modules will be paralleled into a Square D QO load center each with a dedicated 30A 2p breaker it will be easy to isolate and remove any module for testing/repair without messing with the rest of the system.

I'm just now realizing how much wiring work I still have to do on the BMS wiring as well as installing the rest of the solar build. I'll likely just finish gathering all the components now and really dive into the build this fall when farm work slows down a bit.

What are the plans for your build?
 

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What are the plans for your build?
My build is just residential powering an off grid shed in the backyard. I don't have enough south facing roof space for more than a 4kw install anyway and with current tech in panels, I wouldn't be able to power my whole house load. I think eventually we'll get a energy density bump in the panels so for now it's just a hobby so I can jump on that whenever it happens. As far as the batteries on my current small setup, I needed LTO because it gets quite cold here in the winter and while I can power a heater, I didn't want to do that every day wasting the energy from the couple of panels. For LTO the fit packs are by far the best deal while they last but as you know don't play nice with typical inverter ranges. My original 3kw of batteries, I just wasted one cell out of every 12 and ran them 11s 24V which plays nice with most inverters. I occasionally got more packs and experimented with tapping, spot welding, etc. to see if I could get them parallel first then series but in general the parts needed are only slightly cheaper than a smart bms ($60) that will balance at whatever voltage you set.

It works fine but if I were going to do it all over again rather than going 11s, I'd just get a slightly more expensive inverter like the MPP solar 3048-LV-MK or 2024-LV-MK that could just play nice with 12s or 24s respecitively (it basically handles up to 2.66V per cell for charging unlike most standard inverters which would only get to 2.45V per cell wasting a lot of the energy). That would also get rid of almost all of the work it'd basically be plug and play after taking the honda bms out and putting the smart bms in and configuring it for LTO with starting to balance at 2.5V. The daly BMS you got if you had them start the balance at 2.5V (obviously we both wish we could go back in time) would also be ok at half the price and less balancing current but would likely be just fine and keep things in sync, especially with the low C rates of solar.

While it last though used LTO cells at prices comparable to Li ion is a steal. Whenever that runs out new LTO cells are 2-3x the cost. Depending on the usecase that might still be worth it getting Yinlong, GWL power, or toshiba cells but it would get to the point at least if your reason for LTO is low temp that maybe it would be worth switching to LifePo4 and just running a heater all the time in winter.

Battery charger wise, I'm relatively happy with my general power supply and load tester. It will work for any battery and is cheap and allows me to charge one packs while discharging the other so its faster, but I do see the appeal of data logging and automation. I'm only going to buy one of those once, I don't want to have to switch or upgrade when a new chemistry comes out so if I can hack the powerlab to do that wonderful, otherwise I'll stick to the power supply and load tester. I was looking over ebay and their website and all the apps for all the models are essentially the same (PL8, dual, PL6, cellpro4, cellpro 10, etc.). While the cellpro's are only chargers and not dischargers they can be found much cheaper (under $30) so maybe I'll get one of those for the test over the next few months. The approach is the same in that can I bypass the error checking and make it totally general purpose within the confines of the hardware. It's a shame that they are essentially done with software updates, if they'd just continue to add chemistries it wouldn't matter but it is what it is.
 
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