Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 160 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Tieing into the exsistign Hybrid system will be difficult for many reasons and the engine will always produce drag unless it is helping to push the car.

A wheel motor will increase the unsprung weight of the car and all those issues.

So if the engine is in neutral. The Idea is to have a 5th wheel drop down in the back around where the spare tire is. The 5th wheel can be retracted to prevent drag at highway speeds, and then lowered at lower speeds to provide a limited EV mode.

Concidering the weight of the Insight a 10 to 20 HP / kW Electric motor should be enough for a limited EV mode.

There is a company in Fl that sells electric pocket bikes.

http://www.suncoast.net/pocket_bikes.php

They have some different options but the electric pocket bikes should be enough power for a limited EV mode on an insight.... 8HP continuous or up to ~15HP / 18kW peak.

----------------
48 Volt Racing Cyclone Product Specs:
Speed: 55 MPH Range: 15 Miles Voltage: 48 V
Batteries: 12V 14Ah Battery Type: High Power Lead-Acid
Charge Time: 4-6 Hours Charger: 48V 8A (Included)
Motor: 15HP Peak, 8HP Continuous Drive: Direct Chain
Throttle: Variable Speed Control Brakes: Front & Rear Disc
Weight Limit: 250 Lbs Wheel Size: 8" Aluminum Alloy
Tires: Front 90/65-8, Rear 130/50-8 Color: Blue and Black
Price: $2,695.00 * Custom options available.
-----------------

We won't neccessarily need the whole pocket bike... but the motor is the right size... The control system is already there... The Batteries are already there for 10~15 Miles Range.... etc...etc.... I haven't priced it out exactly but buying the parts all seperatly I suspect will be in the $2,000+ Price range anyway.

---------------------
FYI ... Mike ( The Man Behind MIMA )... Is the one who I think first came up with this idea... He had pointed out several probelms with some of the other ideas I had for a EV Mode....

Also Mike is already buisy working on another very useful project... He is doing tests on Grid Charging / a booster battery pack for the insight the goal of that project is to give extra power to the insight battery pack... that would allow for more / extended use of MIMA.
----------------------

The other great thing here... is the FAS project also being worked on will allow us to force the engine to Auto Stop when in neutral for the EV Mode.

I wanted to move this topic to here to prevent it from being off topic in other threads.

If I am missing anything important please let me know.... Or if you have any thoughts of your own please feel free to add them too.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,389 Posts
IamIan
That looks like the right size motor, but is it capable of regenerative braking?
I think that regen would almost be a necessisity to get the maximum range.
While out there playing with the booster pack, I jumped in my pit, and took another look under there.
I wonder if we could do a retractable friction drive to one of the rear wheels, to avoid the cutting of the spare tire compartment. It may not be much more inefficient than putting the drive wheel on the road, and may be possible to tuck it in the rear wheel well.
It will ne nice again tomorrow, so I will get back under there, and take some measurements. The pocket bike rear arm would definately look cool dropping down from under the rear bumper.
Mike :wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Well you'd certainly know the car's gender. :wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
The EV pocket Bike is unfortunely not capacble of regenerative braking.

It is a DC 48V 400 Amp peek 100 Amp continuous setup Uses disc brakes.

To try to get regenerative braking we would need at the very least a different controller.

I know it can be done but I have not seen more than a handfull of DC motor Controlers that allow for regenerative braking. They are almost always AC motor Controlers being used for regenerative braking. Something about it must cause problems or something.

----------------------

I figured on useing the Insights Regenerative braking for the EV mode add on.

If more range was desired then a bettery battery chemistry could be used or more batteries...

Or I know that the accessory system will give you 12V 20A. I have used a small 200W electric heater sometimes, as it is warm air in seconds on those bitter cold mornings.... I also noticed that when pulling power like this from the accessory unit the forced regen seems to want to stay on not only to warm up the battery pack but to top it off too.

Now 200W would not be regenerating power to the EV mode very quickly at all... but I figure The Lead Acid Batteries it comes with give the bike a ~15 mile range... should be able to give the insight ~10 Minutes of EV mode... Which should be enough for low speed pull out or with FAS to keep the engine in Auto Stop it could be used to crest some hills.... Adding more range is just a matter then of adding more or better batteries.

-------------------

If we can do a add on to one of the rear wheels I still like that idea.

I know it will have problems though as mike has pointed out before.

The nice thing about adding drive mechanism somehow to the rear wheel instead of the drop down wheel is that it should save more weight I would think.

I think thier are problems either way.

I will see what I can find for Wheel motors... If others see a godo way to turn the rear wheels in another way please let us know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
922 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Metric Mind I have not contacted.... From what I have seen of thier web site and EV conversion example they do not do the wheel electric motor thing... They do have some other motors but the smallest I have seen them carry is 9kW Continuous and the smallest peak power is 28kW.... Thier stuff looks more like the kind of thing people go for when they replace the whole engine and have a full EV. ... I didn't think we wanted / needed that much power.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,389 Posts
Kevin IamIan, nice links, but what would one of the systems cost?

I aggree with Kevin that anthing less than a light weight hub motor would not be the optimum solution.
Crazy Idea # ??
Lets make the motor out of the wheel :idea:
the bearings are already there, it is already connected to the car, and the wheel fits on it.

BDC motors are pretty simple devices, just a ring of magnets and a ring of coils, with some hall effect sensors to tell the system when to fire the coil.
What if we designed a bolt on system using the present wheel hub and bearing. the magnets would be on a ring that was clamped around the outer diameter of the wheel, like a big shaft collar, 2 halfs. The coil assembly would mount to the wheel support using existing holes if possible, and shims to the magnet assembly, to keep the gap uniform. Make a nice weather proof cover, and you have a light weight BDC hubmotor.
I know there are a lot of areas that would need to be worked out, the biggest being the need for a small air gap between the magnet assembly and the coil assembly, and keeping road crap out of that gap. Now there is an engineering challange.
:wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I will know better the costs when I hear back from the 3 companies I contacted.

Ideally they will cost in the same range as other 10kW to 20kW Motors...

If they are too much then I guess we are not useing a wheel motor.

-----------------

I thought the insight didn't have a rear axel? That the rear Tires were not connected to each other?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,389 Posts
Great the price will be the key. There is no reason they could not produce an EV wheel if some one wanted to.
The way the rear end is set up, there is a formed U channel of steel welded to two tubular arms one for each wheel. The U part may flex a bit like a torsion bar. The two Tubes for the wheel bearing are about 10 inches to the rear of the U channel. the wheel bearing /brake assembly is mounted to the end of each one.

I just got out of the pit, and it looks like there may be a way to mount my two 24V wheel chair motors between the gastank and the front of the spare tire box, hanging just below the U channel and attached to it. The shafts of the motors would extend to just inside the rear spindle of the wheels. I have a design in mind that would allow a driven rubber wheel of maybe 3-4 In dia to be engaged or disengaged with the tire.
Need to draw it up to scale and see if it can work. Not elagant, but virtually free, as I already have most everything I need. The driven wheel would engage the tire at a point tangent to the suspension travel, so it would not move much as the tire moved up and down.
My intuition is that this has about an 80% chance of sucess, so I will give it a closer look.
The best part would be it could bolt on, and no modifications to the car.

:wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Mike a friction drive setup is unlikely to work in the rain, mud, or snow. A Vella Solex moped uses a Carborundum wheel rubbung on a virtually tread free rubber wheel. Not much power there! Personally I'd try hub motors or CV joints if I was going that route. Plus, you really need to drive both back wheels to make this a viable aproach in terms of safety, if you are not going to have the drive in the center. We already have an exceptional electric motor in the front of the car, so I'd be inclined to just pursue theIMA booster route. I'm impressed that you are making good progress on that approach, and hoping it will work. :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
Mike Dabrowski 2000 said:
Crazy Idea # ??
Lets make the motor out of the wheel :idea:
I like this idea! Get it right and you could add EV mode to any car. 8)

Or could weld a toothed rim around the wheel driven by a cog - better grip than a rubber wheel? May need larger diameter wheel to allow clearance though? :?

I also like the idea briefly mentioned in the Grid Charging thread - splicing a cog onto a driveshaft just out from the gearbox. Then all that's needed is a small motor driving it through a chain. Again cool because it could be adapted for use in any car. I take it there wouldn't be enough room in the Insight engine bay for such a thing?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,389 Posts
Kip is correct about a friction drive in the rain, and to get 5-10 HP through a friction drive would involve some serious pressure betwen the tire and the drive roll even when dry.
There is a guy in Seattle that has started fabricating a new rear end using CV joints and front wheel bearing assemblies.
http://www.seattleeva.org/index.php?tit ... tric_Drive
He still has a lot to work out, and I believe he is going for a full electric Insight. The heavy CV joints on the rear, and the constant mechanical drag would seem to be the problems with this approach. As part of an Auxiliary EV drive.
If part of an all electric system, it would always want to be driven, so the drag issue would not be a big factor. Go for it Ryan.
Clett
The issue of adding chain sprockets to the front axels is the constant additional mechanical drag, but a well made chain drive can be quite friction free. We would probably not want to have a coaster/sprag on the drive, as that would eliminate any possibility of regenerative braking with the auxiliary EV drive.
I hope to get back under there again today, and will snap a few photos.

:wink:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
ok Still have some other fishing lines out there but the first responces came back.

not soo good unfortunately:

From e-traction:

There system is all integrated... Nice for converting to full EV on a bus or other large vehicle but too much for what we want...

There smallest system would need a serious differential as it peaks at 600Nm ( thats ~450ft-lbs ) , WAY too much for us... hell... the whole ICE + IMA from the Insight only puts out 91ft-lbs peak... this is more than 4 times that all to one wheel.... too much :shock:

"This all inclusive system will provide full direct-drive functionality including regenerative energy recovery. The DC to AC inverter as well as the Logic Controller is built into the unit. The cost will be roughly $10,000 (FOB Apeldoorn, NL)."

The rep said we would need :
1: A differential
2: Batteries
3: A mechanic to put it in the car

but $10,000 is too much... besides this is WAY too much power... it is also under 200 Lbs for I guess everything but the differential and batteries... but we should be able to get it far less expensive then that and far lighter... as we do not need anything that monsterous.....

The Irony is that this is thier smallest system... It is being used to move around a EV Mail truck that weighs in with batteries just under 4,000 Lbs.

--------------

here's hoping the other companies have smaller systems
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Second response :

From Wave Crest:

Seems they have Motors that would do exactly what we want them to do.

Unfortunately they are in the proccess of changing the focus of thier company.

They will be moving toward a company that sells and creates technology solutions for other companies... They won't make anything... They are aparently leaving the production side of it completely and moving completely into the engineering development side of it....

So two down :(

Oh well... we will see what turns up from the last of the fishing lines.

other wise the wheel motor may be a no-go.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,894 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Ok... So Wave Crest even though they no longer actually produce anything... one of thier Product Development Engineers did email me to let me know that they do have :

"a design that we have will provide about 30 kW of power for
the rear of an otherwise front wheel drive vehicle."

I think 30 kW is still more than we need but the other probelm with this is that it is the design not the deivce... which would mean that we would have to find some other company to actually manufacture said device.

Also since this is a one of a kind type of manufacturing it will more than likely be too expensive.

Oh well.... It was nice of them to give the extra detail ... but I think Wave Crest is still off our list.

Still hoping that some company out there already makes 10kW to 20kW or ~15 HP to ~20 HP Electric Wheel motors that are cost competative with other ~15 to ~20 HP electric motors.... But so far... no luck.

So Far all I have been able to find is that electric wheel motors exsist but so far the only ones in production that I have found are either less than 1 kW or way too much for our needs.... the only other thing found is the designers who will sell us use of thier plans for that type of motor but we would have to find some other company to actually make us a prototype.

It has not been that long of searching and contacting companies yet... but as it is now I would say that while I will continue to search a Plan B should be discussed / figured out..... I know we already talked about the electric pocket bike that was ~15 HP no Regenerative braking and under $3,000... any other ideas for less cost or other niceness???
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,389 Posts
I just looked over the links more carefully and did some more searching, and no one that has designed a replacement electric wheel suitable for driving a car, is willing to sell us the wheel.
Toyota, Honda, and probably all of the major auto manufacturers through out the world, have solid designs for BDC in wheel motors, as we see in their concept cars.
The potential market for a bolt on hybrid conversion that would take any light weight gas car, and add all the benifits of hybrid with EV only mode, would seem to be huge.
The car companies who already know how to do it, are not ready to. They want to sell new cars, not make old ones better so people don't buy new ones.
Gas will in our lifetimes get well over $5/ gal, and foward thinking companies like Honda and Toyota have realized that they have to get in the electric car business, either hybrid or EV, now , to be ready for high production once the mass scramble for more efficient cars starts.
After the oil supply starts to get limited, and the price of gas really takes off.

So if they won't help us, we need to figure out what we can do now, to add electrically driven rear wheels to the Insight .
The electrical to power applied to the road efficiency is where we need to pay a lot of attention.
My 5th wheel while a non elegant solution, is the easiest to achieve high efficiency with. A friction drive to the rear wheels could be tucked up under there and be a bolt on, but the motor to friction wheel to wheel to road will likely be less efficient than the more direct motor to wheel to road drive of the 5th wheel.
I looked at the front drive where the two cv arms connect to the motor, and there is no room for any sprockets or other method to couple power into the drive. no clearance, so the rear is where it has to happen. Lets keep looking at options.
http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/
I sent in an inquiry, lets see if I get anything useful.

:wink:
 
1 - 20 of 160 Posts
Top