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Discussion Starter #1
I am getting ready to yank my transmission out based on the noise diagnosis of ISB pending failure. I also have had another transmission issue since I purchased the car used 100,000 miles age (it had 150,000 miles on it then). It will pop out of 2nd gear if I release the gas pedal after accelerating hard in 2nd gear. This is rarely an issue the way I drive, but figured since the tranny will be out and apart... Anyway, I don't have any of the grinding noise issues I read of others having.
 

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I have no direct experience with this, but just a thought: if it pops out of second after accelerating, releasing the gas pedal, the engine/transmission might be moving too much because of a bad rear torque mount - and maybe that's causing the problem, or part of the problem? Seems like the movement would be down/forward, just as though you were shifting out of second... I think when you accelerate the engine tries to rotate counter-clockwise and rearward when viewed from the driver-side. A good torque mount would limit the movement. When you let off the gas the engine/transmission would shift clockwise and forward, back to where it was to begin with. A bad torque mount could easily allow say double, triple the movement...
 

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Only if the shifting was done by rods. The Insight uses cables.
(My opinion)
Wait for Jeff652 to respond.
 

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Yeah, I don't 'really' know, just thought it might be possible. Even with cables, cables can still get tweaked when they move and shift gears - at least on bicycles...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Replaced rear mount a few weeks ago when I was under car since it had deteriorated pretty badly. This helped smooth out the shifting but did not help the popping out of 2nd gear.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I made a video with the knocking sound I am hearing. You will probably need to crank the volume up to hear. It's not anything you can make happen when sitting still.

 

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It could just be another manifestation of the prior owner getting too rough with the poor thing on 5th - 2nd downshifts. If you have ever worked on a manual, the Insight 5 speed is pretty simple. If not, then it is a good unit to learn on. Just make sure you have the service manual. Apart from second gear and synchros, the main things to check are the detent and countershaft bearings especially the big needle bearing. Presumably, if it was a problem with the detent, i.e. a weak or broken spring, 1st and 2nd shifts, with the car off, would feel noticeably different from 3rd and 4th.
 

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My gut says axles, probably blown bearing somewhere in axle shafts. If it was ISB, you would hear a sound or a change in sound when depressing or releasing the clutch (moving or not). Since you don't have that symptom, and your popping/knock sounds only happens when the car is moving, I'm leaning toward drive line (axle or brakes).

Do this: Find a downhill, while rolling down the hill at speed and hearing the noise push clutch in. Does noise go away?

EDIT: This test may not be conclusive. If the problem is in the transmission, the noise may still remain. Hrmm need to think of another way to diagnose this.
 

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Hand shaking the axles going into the transmission from underneath?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi Jeff,

I cannot make the noise happen when the clutch is not out since I need to be accelerating. It really does sound like it's coming from the center-right front of the vehicle. Brake pads are new and it made the noise before they were changed.

I did just jack up each front side individually to take each wheel off the ground. I spun each wheel under engine power in 1st and 2nd gear to check for wheel bearing noise. Heard nothing except a bit of differential noise which sounded normal for spinning one wheel at a time. I could not make the knocking sound occur in this manner.

Will get under the vehicle and check for axle looseness tomorrow. Have to take a road trip right now and will see if I can find a parking lot to test if the noise is different while accelerating into a turn or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hi Jeff,

took the transmission out and disassembled it over the weekend. I can say that both the input shaft bearing and the bearing at the other end of the mainshaft are noisy and a bit rough when rotated by hand. All the other bearings are quiet and smooth when rotated by hand, but when I actually put the pieces together and spin things all the bearings are a little noisy, this includes the two bearings on the big transaxle gear and the bearings on the countershaft - is this normal in your experience?

Since I am mainly looking for the rattle sound when accelerating in first gear, I will take a very close look at everthing, but right off one thing I notice is that the single synchro collar that rides on the countershaft is very loose - it can be wiggled side to side quite a lot - again, does this seem normal?

The synchro rings themselves do not look that bad and I was not having any trouble shifting. I did have an occasional pop out of 2nd gear, but only if I was decelerating hard from an upshift into 2nd. I do not see any metallic destruction in this tranny at all. The car has 250k miles on it, 100k of those were driven by me. The tranny fluid has not been changed since I've owned the car.

I am asking for your expertise on this since I see you have worked on a bunch of these.

Thanks,

--Paul R.
 

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Hand shaking the axles going into the transmission from underneath?
What will that tell you? I have a clunking noise when the engine first starts up and also when it idles. I can duplicate the sound by shaking the axles going into the trans. so it's not the engine mounts. Is there a bearing that the axles mate to inside the transmission that could be worn/loose?
 

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Many of the uneven shifting problems may be due corrosion and lack of lube within the cables, pivots, and shift mechanism parts.
I experiment the exact symptom last winter whith my shifter pop up to neutral.
This begin with second gear and 2 mounth later i got 3 and 4 pop up to.

After i whack the mechanism pivot at the end of 2 cable beside the transmission with wd40 and a sand paper to remove the rust,and lubrificate the pivot with white grease.
I got no more pop up shifter since.

Some time small solution for big problem.
 

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My Insight makes *exactly* the same noise accelerating in 1st and a bit in 2nd. It also makes a little obvious ISB noise. I have a new ISB in hand and am getting ready to yank the transmission... following this thread with extreme interest.

Mine does not pop out of gear, though.
 

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Hi Jeff,

took the transmission out and disassembled it over the weekend. I can say that both the input shaft bearing and the bearing at the other end of the mainshaft are noisy and a bit rough when rotated by hand. All the other bearings are quiet and smooth when rotated by hand, but when I actually put the pieces together and spin things all the bearings are a little noisy, this includes the two bearings on the big transaxle gear and the bearings on the countershaft - is this normal in your experience?

Since I am mainly looking for the rattle sound when accelerating in first gear, I will take a very close look at everthing, but right off one thing I notice is that the single synchro collar that rides on the countershaft is very loose - it can be wiggled side to side quite a lot - again, does this seem normal?

The synchro rings themselves do not look that bad and I was not having any trouble shifting. I did have an occasional pop out of 2nd gear, but only if I was decelerating hard from an upshift into 2nd. I do not see any metallic destruction in this tranny at all. The car has 250k miles on it, 100k of those were driven by me. The tranny fluid has not been changed since I've owned the car.

I am asking for your expertise on this since I see you have worked on a bunch of these.

Thanks,

--Paul R.
Sorry been swamped since my backpacking trip last weekend. Still trying to catch up. The bearings should be silky smooth. Any roughness is a flag for replacement. The rear main shaft bearing is around $25, and since you already have to re-shim the main shaft, you might as well do both. A very small amount of bearing noise is OK, as the fluid eliminates that. If there is roughness, that is not OK. Then again if it was my trans, I'd replace all of them ;-) - they are relatively cheap.

I don't remember any excessive play on the 1-2 syncro ring (on the counter shaft). Maybe a mm or two. I don't have one to compare at the moment. They don't normally fail, unless there is damage to the ring teeth. When you disassemble the counter shaft, post a couple photos of the ring teeth.

How did the ball bearing springs look? If one is softer than the others, could contribute to coming out of gear. Also low fluid and bad ISB can all cause strange things to happen. What is the condition of your ISB?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I am going to replace the ISB, the rear main shaft bearing, and the countershaft big needle bearing. These all have roughness, especially the ISB. The ISB has some major flat spots if I spin it with the shaft installed horizontally. I decided against replacing the axle carrier bearings as these are quite quiet when the gear axis is horizontal. I did not detect any issue with any of the CV joints on the axles.

The shim job looks like the hardest part. Guess the goal is to get the proper end-play when the shaft is installed and both halves of the case are bolted together. Is that special jig tool the FSM shows to grab the shaft and pull it out against the spring washer really necessary or is there some other way that works?
 

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The shim job looks like the hardest part. Guess the goal is to get the proper end-play when the shaft is installed and both halves of the case are bolted together. Is that special jig tool the FSM shows to grab the shaft and pull it out against the spring washer really necessary or is there some other way that works?
I do not perform the end play test - it is redundant. If you can measure distance A and B properly and do the calculations, you do not need that 'test'.

:)
 

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The ISB has some major flat spots if I spin it with the shaft installed horizontally.
I'm not a transmission expert by any means, but it seems to me that if the ISB has flat spots that could account for the clicking under acceleration. When torque is being applied, the forces on the bearing will be more radial (due to the torque, the mainshaft and counter shaft push apart from each other). Each time the balls roll over the flat spot while loaded - click click click. Just thinking out loud here. The noise does seem to correspond to engine speed, not wheel speed.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I'm hoping what you're thinking. The ISB flat spot does not occur on every rotation of the bearing - I guess the balls have to get in a particular orientation to make it happen, so the period of the noise is longer than the rotational period.

My experience with the AC clutch bearing on this car also is making me think these bearings are capable of anything. When I spun the AC bearing by hand it made a roaring sound, but in operation I thought the timing chain was beating against the timing cover and was about to let go. When I replaced the AC bearing 85% of the noise in my car went away.

Looking over all the gears and synchros I cannot justify spending money on them since the tranny was shifting ok with no grinding or excessive effort. They are expensive, at least for me.

BTW, the parts came already from Bernardi Honda - I am used to waiting a lot longer. Am going away for a week so will start the rebuild when I get back. Will let everyone know what transpires.
 
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