Honda Insight Forum banner

321 - 340 of 406 Posts

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
today I installed a 9.09 K 0.1% resistor for Vpin. Tomorrow I'll reinstall my hacked harness, still without the BCMI.
Why 9.09K for the VPIN?

What value will be using for the pre resistor on your BCM Fooler?

What other value resistors are you using in your BCM Fooler?
 

·
Premium Member
Chicago & Detroit
Joined
·
1,052 Posts
Discussion Starter #322
My Fooler resistors are (I'm embarrassed to say I just this second discovered I have 1k 0.1% resistors on the Fooler board) and my pre-resistor is 20.0k. I've been running only the Fooler (no Vpin and no pre-resistor) with 1k for a week now. Everything went well. In the past I had 22k resistors to reduce parasitic loses when the car was parked for periods of time. It's my understanding that as long as the fool or resistors are of equal value the higher the resistance the less parasitic losses you get. And that 1K Fuller will work fine but the parasitic losses will be higher. Is that correct? If I reinstall 22k 0.1% resistors what is the optimum Vpin resistor value?

I got the 9.09k value from something you wrote. You said this was the exact value to use but the normal 10k was sufficient. I wrote that down in my notes but couldn't find the reference. It may have been in an email. Does this ring a bell? Is this value going to work? If the Vpin were to be an exact value what would it be?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
If you use 10 x 22k resistors for your BCM fooler and a 22k pre -resistor, then you need an 10k VPIN resistor.

I suggest you just make up the BCM fooler and try it without any pre resistor/vpin resistors for a while.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,558 Posts
Works well and also avoids sources of mistakes;)

You will have to charge the pack occasionally. In a tight, if battery is down to minimum, you can get a bit of charge by sitting still and running the engine at 3,000 RPM for a few minutes.
 

·
Premium Member
Chicago & Detroit
Joined
·
1,052 Posts
Discussion Starter #325 (Edited)
I've been running my Fooler with 1k resistors and no Vpin or pre-resistor for a week now. Did you never mention that a 9.09k resistor is the most perfect value? You are the Gadget God and I wouldn't do anything I didn't get from you. Don't know where I got that if I didn't get it from you.
If you had to re-do your Fooler what are the perfect values for Vpin and pre-resistor using EDIT: 10x 20.0k 0.1% resistors? I like things exact... perfect. Thanks
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
I might have mentioned it, who knows.
But you have my current answer above for 22k BCM fooler resistors.
You need to re-read these threads to refresh your memory on all that has gone before.

I'm not using any vpin or bcm fooler pre-resistors at the moment if that helps.
 

·
Premium Member
Chicago & Detroit
Joined
·
1,052 Posts
Discussion Starter #327
Thanks for your answers.
- does the value of the Fooler resistors (x10) only effect parasitic loses, the higher the value the less loses?

- That begs the question: what do the Vpin and pre-resistor provide/ allow one to do that one can't do when not using them?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
- That begs the question: what do the Vpin and pre-resistor provide/ allow one to do that one can't do when not using them?
Please re-read the threads....
 

·
Engine-Off-Coast
Joined
·
1,919 Posts
Thanks for your answers.
- does the value of the Fooler resistors (x10) only effect parasitic loses, the higher the value the less loses?

- That begs the question: what do the Vpin and pre-resistor provide/ allow one to do that one can't do when not using them?
1: More or less, yes.
2: I have done three LTO installs of 72-cell setups. I've not used a pre-resistor on any of the installs. The pre-resistor is not required if you're doing 60 or 72 cells.

With that in mind, I can't remember why they're used on some installs, but I'm just saying that because it's not required for a 72 cell you should probably omit it if you don't know what it's for.
 

·
Premium Member
Chicago & Detroit
Joined
·
1,052 Posts
Discussion Starter #332
@Natalya: From what I understand if you put a pre resistor on your Fooler board, then you need a Vpin resistor so that the Vpin voltage input at MCM C-16 keeps the same ratio between Fooler out to Vpin in. I'm not sure what happens if one of those resistors is not installed.
Peter please confirm so only correct info gets into the community.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
That is basically correct.

Using a VPIN & PRERESISTOR moves the operational working voltage range of a pack down by X%.

If you only install one of the resistors you will get an imbalance and most probably an error code.
 

·
Premium Member
Chicago & Detroit
Joined
·
1,052 Posts
Discussion Starter #334
I don't see Mdm in the current software. Please tell me the decimal value. That is Mdm Vcomp Val in the Menu list but it's not described as that.
 

·
Engine-Off-Coast
Joined
·
1,919 Posts
@Natalya: From what I understand if you put a pre resistor on your Fooler board, then you need a Vpin resistor so that the Vpin voltage input at MCM C-16 keeps the same ratio between Fooler out to Vpin in. I'm not sure what happens if one of those resistors is not installed.
Peter please confirm so only correct info gets into the community.
That is basically correct.

Using a VPIN & PRERESISTOR moves the operational working voltage range of a pack down by X%.

If you only install one of the resistors you will get an imbalance and most probably an error code.
@minor4326 I just wanted to add that if you do not install either of the resistors, on a 72 cell pack, you will not get any problems.

IMO, keep it simple, don't add the resistors if you're going with 72 cells.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
I don't see Mdm in the current software. Please tell me the decimal value. That is Mdm Vcomp Val in the Menu list but it's not described as that.
This is in your own spreadsheet! ;)
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
The min/max operational voltage and voltage range of LTO packs differs depending on the number of cells you have.
Let's assume for this simple comparison each cell has a 2v minimum and 2.6v maximum and is perfectly balanced.

A 60 cell pack has a maximum voltage of 2.6 x 60 = 156V
A 60 cell pack has a minimum voltage of 2.0 x 60 = 120V
This 60 cell pack has an operating range of 156 - 120 = 36V

A 72 cell pack has a maximum voltage of 2.6 x 72 = 187.2V
A 72 cell pack has a minimum voltage of 2.0 x 72 = 144V
This 72 cell pack has an operating range of 187.2 - 144 = 43.2V

A 84 cell pack has a maximum voltage of 2.6 x 84 = 218.4V
A 84 cell pack has a minimum voltage of 2.0 x 84 = 168V
This 84 cell pack has an operating range of 218.4 - 168 = 50.4V


For comparison a stock NIMH pack has an operating range of ~120V to about 190V that's 70V

We have to trick the car using various devices to accept a pack with a narrower operating voltage window and different minimum and maximum voltages.

That's a tall order and is sometimes tricky.

Combinations of resistors and other devices allow us to move the operating voltage range window of our LTO pack into an acceptable part of the OEM NIMH voltage range. Some like the range higher or lower than others which might mean more or less charging etc etc. BCM Fooler pre resistors and VPIN resistors allows us to move this range.

The 72 cell setup without resistors seems the best and simplest solution at present.
Of course as we and you gain experience we might want to shift that range down a bit using resistors.


By monitoring closely our LTO pack cells and intervening when necessary, we can prevent abuse/damage of the LTO by the OEM systems, which are not geared for Lithium in any way shape or form.
 

·
Engine-Off-Coast
Joined
·
1,919 Posts
Peter, in my car (2000 72 cell without pre resistors) I have noticed the car will positively recalibrate itself any time there is significant regen and the resting voltage is 163 or higher according to Bvo on the OBDIIC&C. Sometimes even 162. I've charged it to 172, and I don't get an IMA light or anything, but it doesn't like charging itself in the higher voltages.

This is desireable to me because this way I can use it as a light PHEV, and limiting background regen (because SoC jumps back up) of course reduces fuel consumption.

But, with that in mind, can I ask where the 190V max figure for the OEM NiMH pack comes from? It seems my car keeps the window tight on its own.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
12,434 Posts
Well the maximum short term IMA system voltage is actually ~192V under heavy regen.

Above that you get an IMA error and it rarely gets anywhere near that in practise.

But with an old high internal resistance NIMH pack the voltage can spike quite high under 50A regen.
 
321 - 340 of 406 Posts
Top