This is an interesting crack. It kinda looks like a fatigue related crack. Maybe that large cable was operating with a lot of pre load on it. That could maybe cause the crack?
Minor4326 LTO Conversion
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@jime. Thanks for your thought provoker. The connector piece under where the cable connects had a slight turn/twist/angle to it. I would agree that this crack didn't happen after one torque event, but it strikes me as peculiar this would happen enough times to cause the damage. Second thought, I've had the batteries out several times and the cables disconnected /reconnected multiple times. I usually use an electric torque tool but the first instant it stops/starts to torque, I quit. All the other joints /connections on that pack look good. I guess I'll have to be more careful in the future and warn others of what happened to me.
I thought I'd document my mods and updates on my own thread instead of the generic "what did I do today" thread. This will be more useful to me.
Today I removed the standard half-shaft axles and replaced them with the larger Trak Motive brand purchased at Rock Auto.
Several weeks ago I removed the throttle body and the butterfly inside to give each a thorough cleaning. I then made the TPS adjustment using the Hybrid Revolt mod-box. Now I find it difficult not to stay in lean burn (a bit of an exaggeration, but the green light is on a lot more now).
When the throttle body was off I decided to file the input to make it more of a venturi effect.
![Automotive tire Rim Motor vehicle Gas Vehicle brake]()
Today I removed the standard half-shaft axles and replaced them with the larger Trak Motive brand purchased at Rock Auto.
Several weeks ago I removed the throttle body and the butterfly inside to give each a thorough cleaning. I then made the TPS adjustment using the Hybrid Revolt mod-box. Now I find it difficult not to stay in lean burn (a bit of an exaggeration, but the green light is on a lot more now).
When the throttle body was off I decided to file the input to make it more of a venturi effect.
I've got a question about grid charging my LTO pack. What I'm considering is to put a wire at the end of each 12-cell block, or maybe each 24-module so I can connect to the grid charger will keeping the whole system connected. My question is am I looking for trouble leaving everything connected leaving the system connected when I grid charge each 12 cell pack?
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Why do you want to only charge odd blocks rather than the whole pack?
Yes you can charge individual blocks, the car won't care.
Yes you can charge individual blocks, the car won't care.
Thanks Peter. Just to verify: I can leave all modules connected in the driving configuration and connect each pack, individually to enable grid charging. Correct?
To answer your question it's a real PITA to disconnect everything in order to grid charge. I don't want to disconnect anything in order to have the ability to grid charge all modules.
To answer your question it's a real PITA to disconnect everything in order to grid charge. I don't want to disconnect anything in order to have the ability to grid charge all modules.
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Why are you disconnecting everything to grid charge?
If you want to charge the whole pack just do it.
If you want to charge the whole pack just do it.
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Connecting separate grid chargers to each cell/module/etc is going to unbalance the pack... unless you have a BMS that can rebalance afterwards. There's really no reason to charge cells/modules/etc separately. Just get a charger that can handle the maximum charging voltage and you're all set. Without a BMS, you'll need to manually monitor each cell with a voltage meter.
Thanks for chiming in @mudder. I've got a proper grid charger but due to the voltage boundaries of the LTO, I like to use an accurate, digital 30V DC power supply and charge modules individually, monitoring with an accurate DVM. The issue I have at the moment is one or two 12-cell modules have a variation of greater than 20 millivolts. I'm not exactly sure how to raise the low cell (s) to equal the highest one. Do I pump voltage into the module that equals the high cell so the low one(s) keep charging? Or, I guess, charge the LTO's as a unit and let the voltage sit to a point where all cells eventually equal each other? What do the high cells do while the low ones are charging, just sit there? Is excess heat burn-off occurring? Since my unit is not NiMH grid charging Li seems foreign to me; I'm just a bit tentative with Li cells. That sounds logical, and I read your LiBCM thread about grid charging but since I don't have a BCM and never felt the need, I've never grid charged the complete pack at once. Thanks in advance for your reply.
I don't think I'd tinker with a 20mV variation. That variation is not troublesome yet.
I'm a bit reluctant, but here goes. When I set up a pack, I do my balancing by bring the high cells down to the low cell voltages. I do this by using jumper wires and a .3ohm ceramic power resistor to discharge the high cells a bit. The procedure is not personally dangerous for individual packs on the bench, but it can be highly error prone. If you try the procedure, be very careful. Use color coded wires and alligator clips, and mark the positive and negative ends of every cell in your pack. NEVER, EVER connect two cells in the same 12 cell subpack!
The above process takes a lot of time. A shorter route, if you can identify a few high cells, is to just use color coded jumper wires to transfer charge from high cells directly to low. Positive to positive and negative to negative. This can be extraordinary danger if you get the polarities wrong, so, again mark the polarities. NEVER, EVER connect two cells in the same 12 cell subpack!
The cell voltages will rebound by several milivolts, particularly when being discharged, so you have to go slightly beyond the equal reading to get to what you want. Wait several hours, and repeat the process.
I have never tried to balance a pack in the car. If I were going to do so, I would turn off the main switch, and remove all the little strap bus bars from the packs. That could save you from some potentially very costly accidents.
Great care is required. I'd use rubber gloves, AND NEVER, EVER................
I'm a bit reluctant, but here goes. When I set up a pack, I do my balancing by bring the high cells down to the low cell voltages. I do this by using jumper wires and a .3ohm ceramic power resistor to discharge the high cells a bit. The procedure is not personally dangerous for individual packs on the bench, but it can be highly error prone. If you try the procedure, be very careful. Use color coded wires and alligator clips, and mark the positive and negative ends of every cell in your pack. NEVER, EVER connect two cells in the same 12 cell subpack!
The above process takes a lot of time. A shorter route, if you can identify a few high cells, is to just use color coded jumper wires to transfer charge from high cells directly to low. Positive to positive and negative to negative. This can be extraordinary danger if you get the polarities wrong, so, again mark the polarities. NEVER, EVER connect two cells in the same 12 cell subpack!
The cell voltages will rebound by several milivolts, particularly when being discharged, so you have to go slightly beyond the equal reading to get to what you want. Wait several hours, and repeat the process.
I have never tried to balance a pack in the car. If I were going to do so, I would turn off the main switch, and remove all the little strap bus bars from the packs. That could save you from some potentially very costly accidents.
Great care is required. I'd use rubber gloves, AND NEVER, EVER................
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2,491 Posts
<EDIT>
Grid charging implies a specific purpose and procedure which if applied to lithium will damage it or possible destroy the vehicle. I've created a new thread that proposes to limit the term "grid charging" to apply to NiMH only, and suggest that we use an industry term (such as "L1 charging" or "PHEV charging") for PHEV-like charging of lithium packs.
This is because the mechanism in NiMH that that "grid charging" leverages to balance a NIMH pack at the top of charge does not exist in lithium and will cause a grid charger to damage the pack or possibly cause a thermal runaway.
If the goal is to balance the pack, @jime provides an approach that works (but don't just wear gloves, wear full PPE - including eyes, face, skin, clothing covering - since a slipped wire or tool can shunt hundreds of amps and violently create a metal plasma)
If the goal is to do L1 charging like a PHEV, a charger must be built that automatically shuts down when any single cell reaches capacity. This is not a simple build because it requires building in safety features. For example, the HCH3 BCM utilizes two separate voltage measuring chips which help detect failure if one is reading incorrectly; this can lead to over- or under-charge and a thermal event if not caught. Manually monitoring pack voltage is not enough because one will not observe the cell that's running higher voltage than the rest because the (1) the others average it down making it hard to detect without watching every cell and (2) the rate of rise increases very quickly after around 2.65 volts. One little bit of inattention and...
Grid charging implies a specific purpose and procedure which if applied to lithium will damage it or possible destroy the vehicle. I've created a new thread that proposes to limit the term "grid charging" to apply to NiMH only, and suggest that we use an industry term (such as "L1 charging" or "PHEV charging") for PHEV-like charging of lithium packs.
This is because the mechanism in NiMH that that "grid charging" leverages to balance a NIMH pack at the top of charge does not exist in lithium and will cause a grid charger to damage the pack or possibly cause a thermal runaway.
If the goal is to balance the pack, @jime provides an approach that works (but don't just wear gloves, wear full PPE - including eyes, face, skin, clothing covering - since a slipped wire or tool can shunt hundreds of amps and violently create a metal plasma)
If the goal is to do L1 charging like a PHEV, a charger must be built that automatically shuts down when any single cell reaches capacity. This is not a simple build because it requires building in safety features. For example, the HCH3 BCM utilizes two separate voltage measuring chips which help detect failure if one is reading incorrectly; this can lead to over- or under-charge and a thermal event if not caught. Manually monitoring pack voltage is not enough because one will not observe the cell that's running higher voltage than the rest because the (1) the others average it down making it hard to detect without watching every cell and (2) the rate of rise increases very quickly after around 2.65 volts. One little bit of inattention and...
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2,491 Posts
I missed this first time around! How is it working out? I have a set of these waiting to be installed. Do you like the change?
How does that box work? Is it a combination of a low pass filter to smooth out sudden throttle movements that can end lean burn, or remap the throttle so that the throttle is more open for the same TPS value which might allow a greater load before lean burn is terminated?
Thanks for the words about Li grid charging. I was legitimately leary of doing that. I'm still not sure how to deal with this issue.
Halfshafts: I apparently installed the driver's side incorrectly as it came out in <10 miles. I reinstalled the original and kept the new one on the passenger side. I love the slightly larger diameter new half shafts. It's noticable when I take off from a stop and not being totally smooth on the clutch. If I were short of funds I'd only buy the passenger side.
The Hybrid Revolt box seems to work really well. I was not able to get a good o'scope presentation for adjustment purposes but the directions tell how to set up 2/4 pots manually, and the remaining two affect TPS hi and lo settings. I find my car goes into LB very easy, I can accelerate (slowly) at highway speeds while maintaining LB, and the car goes into Stop easily as well.
Halfshafts: I apparently installed the driver's side incorrectly as it came out in <10 miles. I reinstalled the original and kept the new one on the passenger side. I love the slightly larger diameter new half shafts. It's noticable when I take off from a stop and not being totally smooth on the clutch. If I were short of funds I'd only buy the passenger side.
The Hybrid Revolt box seems to work really well. I was not able to get a good o'scope presentation for adjustment purposes but the directions tell how to set up 2/4 pots manually, and the remaining two affect TPS hi and lo settings. I find my car goes into LB very easy, I can accelerate (slowly) at highway speeds while maintaining LB, and the car goes into Stop easily as well.
I'm hoping that either Peter, Mudder or KLR3CYL are able to read this and provide responses since they are most intimately familiar with the workings and troubleshooting of the IMA, signal issues and an LTO setup.
Several weeks ago I had a p1565 and IMA light illuminate and found that one of the plugs carrying the commutator signals had a slight bit of internal resistance (~0.2 ohms) causing an actual phase error.
Now what I'm finding is I'm getting a occasional p1565 and IMA light but I can make them disappear with a quick ignition reset and a "clear code" on the OBD2C&C, in that order.
I'm thinking an erratic Vpin voltage may be causing this condition, and if so I don't know what it takes to stop. Once or twice over the last several weeks a large bump will cause these dash lights to come on; sometimes an erratic acceleration from a stop will cause the problem but both are rare situations. Generally it seems some form of acceleration or regen will cause the lights to illuminate. Whenever I start my car the SOC gauge will go down by several bars, either before the engine starts or even after the engine starts. It will then climb up to full. I've also found that during driving occasionally the SOC gauge will lower by several bars and then rise again.
I've got the LTO setup; I think originally I had a separate wire with a series resistor going to the Vpin. I took it out after reading that Peter indicated that wire was not necessary. I've read at least one time in the LiBCM threads that a Vpin voltage may cause my issue.
I hope my telling what conditions make the situation occur may help someone explain my situation:
I'm also hoping an explanation and fix is possible because when this happens I lose all Regen braking and all boost.
Several weeks ago I had a p1565 and IMA light illuminate and found that one of the plugs carrying the commutator signals had a slight bit of internal resistance (~0.2 ohms) causing an actual phase error.
Now what I'm finding is I'm getting a occasional p1565 and IMA light but I can make them disappear with a quick ignition reset and a "clear code" on the OBD2C&C, in that order.
I'm thinking an erratic Vpin voltage may be causing this condition, and if so I don't know what it takes to stop. Once or twice over the last several weeks a large bump will cause these dash lights to come on; sometimes an erratic acceleration from a stop will cause the problem but both are rare situations. Generally it seems some form of acceleration or regen will cause the lights to illuminate. Whenever I start my car the SOC gauge will go down by several bars, either before the engine starts or even after the engine starts. It will then climb up to full. I've also found that during driving occasionally the SOC gauge will lower by several bars and then rise again.
I've got the LTO setup; I think originally I had a separate wire with a series resistor going to the Vpin. I took it out after reading that Peter indicated that wire was not necessary. I've read at least one time in the LiBCM threads that a Vpin voltage may cause my issue.
I hope my telling what conditions make the situation occur may help someone explain my situation:
I'm also hoping an explanation and fix is possible because when this happens I lose all Regen braking and all boost.
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2,375 Posts
Those 3 sensors may be going bad. Have you swap the transmission in this car. Been in any small rear or front end incidents.
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4,942 Posts
I would spray contact cleaner:
-on the MCM 'D' connector (the smallest of the four on the front side of the MCM).
-on both connectors where the IMA harness joins the floor harness (between the seats in the middle mat area).
-(ideally) where the IMA harness connects to the Hall sensors, but this is difficult because you have to get inside the engine to do so.
To diagnose the sensor, I would also verify that with the keyON - but not started - the three phase current sensor output voltage logic is any of the following as you slowly rotate the crankshaft by hand**:
001
010
011
100
101
110
FYI: The pattern repeats in the same known pattern each time the motor completes one electrical revolution. However, note that the order I listed the logic ISN'T THAT PATTERN... the actual pattern depends on the Hall sensor implementation. We'll use this tidbit in the next 'FYI' section (below).
The output should NEVER be:
000, or;
111
Where:
'1' = 5 volts, and;
'0' = 0 volts
**To do this safely, you need to turn the IMA switch off AND disconnect the backup starter cable. Otherwise, either source could start the engine while you are rotating the crank, which would probably end poorly. You'll get a Pcode, but it won't matter because the MCM keeps the hall sensors powered no matter how bad the IMA system gets.
FYI:
To truly know what the issue is, you'd need to hook up a logic analyzer to the three Hall sensors, and then display the errant data (i.e. either '111' or '000') each time it occurs. You could build a poor man's logic analyzer with an Arduino... the signals are slow enough that you'd have plenty of bandwidth. Probably less than 20 lines of code to accomplish this goal.
We could take this one step further by programming the derived Hall pattern (see note above), and then the Arduino could log whenever the actual output deviates from the known pattern (e.g. 001->100->101->110->101... etc). So then if we were previously in state '001' and then we skip to '101', then we could deduce that we 'skipped' state '100', which might indicate that the Hall C sensor is sticking high.
-on the MCM 'D' connector (the smallest of the four on the front side of the MCM).
-on both connectors where the IMA harness joins the floor harness (between the seats in the middle mat area).
-(ideally) where the IMA harness connects to the Hall sensors, but this is difficult because you have to get inside the engine to do so.
To diagnose the sensor, I would also verify that with the keyON - but not started - the three phase current sensor output voltage logic is any of the following as you slowly rotate the crankshaft by hand**:
001
010
011
100
101
110
FYI: The pattern repeats in the same known pattern each time the motor completes one electrical revolution. However, note that the order I listed the logic ISN'T THAT PATTERN... the actual pattern depends on the Hall sensor implementation. We'll use this tidbit in the next 'FYI' section (below).
The output should NEVER be:
000, or;
111
Where:
'1' = 5 volts, and;
'0' = 0 volts
**To do this safely, you need to turn the IMA switch off AND disconnect the backup starter cable. Otherwise, either source could start the engine while you are rotating the crank, which would probably end poorly. You'll get a Pcode, but it won't matter because the MCM keeps the hall sensors powered no matter how bad the IMA system gets.
FYI:
To truly know what the issue is, you'd need to hook up a logic analyzer to the three Hall sensors, and then display the errant data (i.e. either '111' or '000') each time it occurs. You could build a poor man's logic analyzer with an Arduino... the signals are slow enough that you'd have plenty of bandwidth. Probably less than 20 lines of code to accomplish this goal.
We could take this one step further by programming the derived Hall pattern (see note above), and then the Arduino could log whenever the actual output deviates from the known pattern (e.g. 001->100->101->110->101... etc). So then if we were previously in state '001' and then we skip to '101', then we could deduce that we 'skipped' state '100', which might indicate that the Hall C sensor is sticking high.
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In most cases it is bad connections in the commutation sensor circuits.
In my car the big light blue connector behind the seats bulkhead was fubar corroded and I bypassed it with soldered wires.
It would also throw codes over jolts and bumps on the road etc. Bypassing the commutation signals in this connector cured it.
Yours might respond to proper cleaning with contact spray etc.
In my car the big light blue connector behind the seats bulkhead was fubar corroded and I bypassed it with soldered wires.
It would also throw codes over jolts and bumps on the road etc. Bypassing the commutation signals in this connector cured it.
Yours might respond to proper cleaning with contact spray etc.
@retepsnikrep can you please address my question about the SOC guage moving up and down at every start. Is that related to Vpin? What causes that?
It's been too cold to remove the cover to access the mid-car connectors so I'll wait. I did want to say the situation of CEL and IMA illumination is sporadic but sometimes it's
literally every 2 minutes. Thankfully I only need to reset the ignition to turn off the IMA in order to gain access to Regen and Accel functions. First the IMA comes on then the CEL. Do you suggest that the IMA triggers the CEL? As I said above I can drive with CEL and still have Regen & Accel functions, that's what's most important.
It's been too cold to remove the cover to access the mid-car connectors so I'll wait. I did want to say the situation of CEL and IMA illumination is sporadic but sometimes it's
literally every 2 minutes. Thankfully I only need to reset the ignition to turn off the IMA in order to gain access to Regen and Accel functions. First the IMA comes on then the CEL. Do you suggest that the IMA triggers the CEL? As I said above I can drive with CEL and still have Regen & Accel functions, that's what's most important.
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