[Skypig]

I love my Insight, but I'm seriously sick and tired of the boneheads at honda dealerships. Yesterday I had the 45,000 mile service done and today driving to work the CEL light came on. I scanned it and got the following: Misfire Codes: P0301, P0302, P0303, P0300. I'm taking the thing back to the dealership first thing tomorrow morning. Has anyone else dealt with these codes? Barber Honda will have no clue, so I'll have to educate them. HELP!!!

Also, I installed a K&N air filter at 30,000. Will Honda claim that I have voided my warranty? I know the law says no, but I doubt they know that.
Could the K&N be causing the problem due to increased air flow and mixture problems?

Steve.

 

[Guest]

Hi Skypig:

___The Honda tech’s that will diagnose the codes will probably know what to do to repair your Insight with the codes given it is practically cook book to start. If the quick fixes don’t work, then its time to worry … It is the superfluous problems that seem to catch the tech’s off guard from my understanding.

___Anyway, the codes you listed are apparently Cylinder mis-fire codes? You can read more about them here as just one place to try and self diagnose.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:bxe5gpbf][email protected][/email:bxe5gpbf]

 

[Skypig]

The Honda tech’s that will diagnose the codes will probably know what to do to repair your Insight...

Wayne,

Thanks for the link. I am curently in a panic because I have learned that Honda will most likely claim that the K&N air filter caused the problem, and so will not cover it. According to numerous sources, the oiled filter can foul the airflow sensors, throttle bodies...etc. I'm trying to locate a paper filter to install before I take it to the shop.

Not good.

Steve.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

<snip>

According to numerous sources, the oiled filter can foul the airflow sensors, throttle bodies...etc. I'm trying to locate a paper filter to install before I take it to the shop.

Not good.

Steve.

What sources?

I've run a K&N for over 25K miles now without incident.

Maybe if the filter was literally _dripping_ with oil shortly after installation you could theoretically foul one or more spark plugs (temporarily) enough to misfire.

_NO_ other sensors can be damaged from this type of contamination. A large amount of oil _could_ gunk up the throttle body enough to become sticky (you'd feel it in the gas pedal) and require cleaning. But that's about it.

HTH

 

[Holicow]

Skypig:

What did they actually do to your car for the 45K service?

Did you notice anything wrong before the CEL? loss of power, rough running, etc?

Is it running fine, in spite of the CEL?

 

[Skypig]

Holicow:

They did basic inspections, rotated the tires, changed the oil and washed it. I noticed that it was bucking slightly when cruising at neutral throttle. (Not accelerating or decelerating) I dropped it off saturday, so I should know something monday afternoon.

Also, regarding the K&N, I removed it and put a honda air filter. I did the same with my jeep and dodge truck. Ford and Chevy have been denying warranty claims due to K&N's. The law says that a manufacturer can not force you to buy a particular brand of part. But they can require that you use the correct type of part. In the jeep/dodge, a dry paper and foam filter is stock. An oiled cloth filter is an entirely different animal. Not the same part. They are entirely within the law to deny the warranty claim. Cheezy or not, I'm taking no chances until the warranties expire. Then I'll pop the K&N's back in.

 

[Rick]

I've seen K&N's do this before. I had one very briefly in my Insight, but pulled it due to fear. I would suggest if you have to run a K&N check your air box from time to time to see if there are any traces of oil in there. I've personally had bad experiences with K&N's in the past, especially after servicing them. You can even sometimes find fine dust in the air box that has gotten through the filter!

After what I've heard I'm personally starting to think that buying Honda's filters and such is cheap insurance to ensure warranties are honored.

 

[Skypig]

OK. Here we go. They called me at 10:00 am monday and said that there were no codes to read because the battery was dead and they had to jump start the car. I asked them "which battery, the IMA or the 12 volt? They said "Huh, what do you mean. Whats an IMA?" I was furious. I personally checked the battery saturday before I turned it in. It showed 12 volts solid and the little eye had a blue circle and red dot. That car has sat for weeks and weeks, yet started right up, no problem. THEY must have left the door open, lights on...whatever. I believe they did it on purpose to wipe out the codes. Why do warranty work when you can sell the sucker a new battery instead? I have had it with Barber Honda of Bakersfield!!!

Of course, they don't stock batteries for the Insight. They have to special order it. That costs more. I really love my Insight, but I'm seriously thinking of trading it in on Prius. We have a Camry and have NEVER had this much trouble with Toyota service. In fact, none at all.

Sorry to spew so much venom here. I am just severly disappointed with Honda. I thought they were better than this. My Jeep Wrangler has been more reliable and trouble free than the Insight. Thats pretty bad.

 

[Rick]

First I'd recommend going and reading the Prius forums first, they are not exactly fault proof.

By 12 volts solid do you mean 12.0 volts? Or was it higher? A good battery will be at 12.7 volts while sitting off a charge. If it was only holding 12.0 it's useful life was probably near it's end. Granted they also could have very well left a light on as well, but Insight's are known to eat 12 volt batteries after just a few years (BTW, the replacment is going to be an overgrown Civic battery, you can't get the oem battery).

As far as the codes if there truely is a problem they should come back in short order anyhow. Still, if this is not the first time they've done this maybe it's time to find a new dealership to try if it's an option.

 

[Skypig]

Rick,

Thanks for the input. I will have to do some research about Toyota service departments and their training/proficiency in maintaining the Prius. I think the problem is that there are so few Insights, most service departments don't have people who really know the car. Barber Honda of Bakersfield definately does not, in my opinion. I have heard good things about Honda of Santa Monica. I work in L.A. but live in Bakersfield, so that gets challenging.

As for the battery, it showed 12.3 volts this morning. I was rooting around the net and found that Excide lists 4 batteries for the insight. I'll have to check that out.

Steve.

 

[cakley]

Holicow:

I noticed that it was bucking slightly when cruising at neutral throttle. (Not accelerating or decelerating) .

My car does the same thing. The Honda tech didn't even have a clue what "lean burn" was :roll: . Tried a different dealership. The Honda Tech drove the car for 2 whole miles. :roll: :twisted:

Anyways. If you told them about your bucking problem- Honda might have sprayed carb cleaner into the EGR ports in an attempt to clean the EGR plate. This would have allowed the plugs to foul.

Side note I've sprayed carb cleaner into my EGR ports and started the car within a few minutes. The car ran real rough then ran smooth. I've never had any CEL.

They might have poured the carb cleaner into the EGR port then let it sit for too long. :?:

I'd write a letter to Honda. and file a complaint with the BBB.

 

[cakley]

Also, I installed a K&N air filter at 30,000.

hmm :shock:
Wonder if those that have bucking problems use the K&N filter. I use one and have the bucking issue.

On the same note I know other owners that use the K&N filter without issues :!:

 

[SeanW]

Steve, this may be a challenge as well but you might want to try Power Honda in Valencia (not too far east of I-5). They serviced my car for the previous owner and, since I've had it, they did the air bag recall and changed the CVT fluid all with no problems. All the people there I have dealt with really seem to be on the ball.

Cakley, I have had a K&N filter for the last 10,000 miles with no problems.

 

[Rick]

I had a K&N in mine for something like 5,000 miles, but then read some reports and got scared and went back to the paper filter. I do occasionally have the buck sort of hesitation while cruising along in lean burn. It's pretty minimal though, most people would probably never notice it. I think it does fit the feel of the EGR sticking just momentarily. I really haven't said anything about it, nor does it bother me (ok I have yelled at the car a few times). I doubt a normal driver would even notice it if happens to infrequently. I would not be able to reproduce it either, but I guess it's a sign my EGR might be doing the same thing in it's early stages that others have had happen who have had theirs replaced. Now whether or not the filter had anything to do with it I don't know.

 

[cakley]

Rick, thats excatly the way my car started out. It will either get worse or you'll notice it more :? Though my wife who hardly drives my car took it on a short trip and she noticed it :shock: When a typical female notices something like such a slight jerk then there is truley a problem.

I wonder how many non-mechanical owners drive there car and don't notice the jerking? This would explain why some owners complain about the lack of power. My car will hardly pull a hill in lean burn since the bucking. It will flat zoom when not in lean burn. I reach 80-90mph on my trips home err the gym :!:

 

[Rick]

Great there's something to look forward to. The strange thing is with your lifetime mileage it wouldn't seem like you spent a whole lot of time in lean burn either. You would think that would help clear it. I know that after a few 70+mpg tanks in a row the thing gets stuff built up in it and a nice 90mph run down the highway for an hour or so always cleared mine right up.

Anyways, if it does get worse if the dealership won't fix it under my warranty or extended warranty I will find it. I have the resources to do so. My family owns an automotive repair shop so I'm confident they'd be able to figure it out eventually. But if you find it in the mean time then I won't have to worry about it. Still, I know you have already spent a decent sum of money and time trying to figure out your own. I wish you were closer to Phoenix. We have the only Honda repair only (no car dealership attached) facility in the southwest. I know they've done a few blown Insight engines, and are the best you'll find. Their service manager is an awsome guy, and to give you an idea of how good they are... when they remove something that has plastic clips on it, they replace them! I've yet to hear of another place that does this.

I use the closest dealership for this and that, but I decided if anything major needs done, if I have to I'll trailer the car across town if I have to to have them do it instead. I wish there were more service places like this.

 

[Holicow]

This is getting further OT, but whatever:

Cakely: have you cleaned the throttle body, or looked at it? I have this problem intermittently at very slight throttle pressure, and have wondered about the TB. Haven't had a chance to check it yet....

 

[Tim Maddux]

Those who are new (I don't know) to this problem might want to refer to the "engine hesitation" thread where EGR valve replacement was found to work for many people (including me), although not everyone (IIRC it didn't work for cakely).

 

[Skypig]

Update: Well, the 12 volt battery is probably on its last legs, but there is no way that it just up and died in their shop. I showed up at the dealership and TOOK the car home. It sat for 2 days and started right up, no problem.

I bought a new battery at Honda of Santa Monica and had a nice chat with their assistant service manager. I felt much more comfortable than with the dullards at Barber Honda. The next time the CEL shows up, I''ll take advantage of my extended warranty hotel/rental car allowance and spend a night on them. I installed the new battery and drove it around a while today. I think its ready to go back to the daily Bakersfield to L.A. to Bakersfield drive tomorrow.

Thanks for all your input here, it was a great help.

Steve.

 

[Skypig]

The drive to work today was extremely revealing. I got the best mpg numbers in several months, since the K&N was installed. If you remember the origional post in this string, I had a CEL, the boneheads at Barber Honda in Bakersfield left a door ajar (my opinion), killed the battery, lost the codes. I took the K&N out, put a honda filter in and installed a new battery. This string of events led to a conversation with a fellow inspector in my office which resulted in the following:

When I installed the K&N, I should have disconnected the battery for a while to wipe out the computer memory. This would have forced the computer to take a fresh "picture" of everything and adjust properly for the increased airflow of the K&N. Because I failed to do this, the computer was "confused" with the change in airflow and never really adjusted the 10,000 things downstream.

When I re-installed the honda filter, the computer had been wiped out, and had to reset and re-establish the parameters. Thus, the MPG numbers jumped back up to the pre-K&N numbers. He informed me that they actually "learn" how to run things based on hard pre-set data and sampled data, with which it adjusts things. When it gets the picture, it can then make small changes as they happen, but big ones can confuse it. Once in a while, its good to wipe out the temporary data and make it update completely as long term changes take place. When making a big change, like a K&N, you need to disconnect the battery so it can start fresh with the new airflow to get the best performance. Or so I was told.