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Hi GreenHybrid:

___I really like the new Prius as well but take a look around the Edmunds or Priusonline forums to see what most 04 Prius owners are actually receiving in terms of fuel economy. Most are not coming anywhere near EPA estimates and only the rare few have just matched them on single segments … The Insight on the other hand even in the worst sub zero weather I have driven in over the last month can usually match the EPA hwy estimates. Around 32 degrees, 80 - 85 mpg is the norm. In other words, EPA estimates are not “Apples and Oranges” but gives an easily comparable benchmark across all model types, lines, manufacturers, etc. …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:iiy1tzgu][email protected][/email:iiy1tzgu]
 

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xcel, EPA tends to be about 20% overestimated. The Insight may achieve these numbers, but it is peculiar.

My 350-mile tank so far is at 47 MPG. Now, this may not be stellar, but for a 5-seater with all the bells and whistles, it's excellent. Many people (even in the cold) are recieving 50-60 MPG
 

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CVT Insight

For a comparison, in a 2001 CVT Insight in 20-35 degree temps over the last week, I averaged 62.0 MPG. Of course, I'm one of those 50PSI freaks who blocks the radiator during the winter and annoys other drivers by driving 2-5MPH below the speed limit in the right-hand lane. Just garaging my vehicle at night is what bumped me up to that from the 60.1 I'd been averaging, it seems.

For comparison, during the snow we've had over the last couple of days, that's dropped down to 55MPG. For a 57/51 rated vehicle, that's still not bad at all.

And I realize this isn't an MPG forum. For what it's worth, I think the 2004 Prius is a pretty kick-*** hybrid. If I'd chosen to part with $15,000 more than I spent, I could have had one :) The 2001-2003 Prius models didn't impress me as much, though. Thanks for the pic, it's nice to get a side-by-side comparison.
 
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Hi GreenHybrid:

___I received a lifetime high in the 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto of 45.97 mpg over 543.8 miles last November. When pushed, my normal range in the same Corolla is between 625 - 675 miles and I have accomplished this many times. I just don’t see much of that kind of discussion in the Prius ranks is all …

___Again, I am not knocking the Prius in the least given I would own one if it were not so expensive to procure but in terms of fuel economy, it appears that it is “not up to the chore” as in the name of the infamous Edmunds - Toyota - Prius thread.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2da9v789][email protected][/email:2da9v789]
 

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xcel,

You're still comparing apples and oranges, though. If you can get 45 MPG on a Corolla, you can most likely get 60 MPG on a Prius. The car responds emmensely to environmental AND driver conditions.

Besides, the Prius only has a 10-12 gallon tank, while the Corolla's is almost twice the size, no?
 
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Hi GreenHybrid:

GreenHybrid said:
$15k more for a Prius? How much does an Insight cost?? $8k? :)
___Most can pick up a used 00 or 01 Insight 5-speed in the $8K - $11K range. Most new Prius purchasers are spending far south of $22K as I am sure you already know …

___As for the 03/04 Corolla’s, it has a 13.2 gallon tank but can hold 15.3 gallons. The Prius folks are having a hard time placing even 10 gallons into its 11.9 gallon capacity tank because of the bladder problem in colder weather.

___In 32 degree F ambient temp test drive of a well driven TRAC based 04 Prius, I received ~ 56 mpg in an all city environment. I was traveling and accelerating far too slowly for real world traffic conditions (unless I wanted to get killed ;)) however.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3ilku85z][email protected][/email:3ilku85z]
 

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xcel,

First off, you just compared a used vehicle to a new vehicle :)

Secondly, the fact of the matter is that New Prius owners don't KNOW how much the tank holds. The gauge is too inaccurate (I supposidely need to "add fuel" after 340 miles at 47 MPG) and the tank often "burps" and spills gas when filled full because low emissions expectations create a tight gas hole and doesn't allow air to exit. We just aren't sure what the tank can hold :) But, it certainly isn't just the cold. I live in FL and have only filled up with 9 gallons so far.
 
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Hi GreenHybrid:

___Can someone pick up a used 04 Prius for $8 - $11K? Of course I was comparing an 00 – 01 Insight to an 04 Prius in terms of both price and EPA and real world economy. If you were to purchase a new Insight, I know of a particular Insightcentral forum member that paid just a hair over $14,000 for his brand new 03 5-speed last year if that helps.
GreenHybrid said:
$15k more for a Prius? How much does an Insight cost?? $8k? :)
___In other words, yes, the Insight costs many ~ $8 - $11K.

___As for the 04 Prius’ fuel tank problem, range is a big selling point with a Hybrid and from the many hundreds of posts on the bladder problem, something isn’t right. Half the enjoyment of owning a Hybrid is bypassing fuel stations day after day. Not many can do that in the 04 Prius in comparison to just about any economy car that I know of. I brought up the lawsuit against GM ~ 7 years ago for offering optional 30 gallon tanks that only held 27 - 28 gallons. Of course the Prius folks over at Edmunds just shrugged it off as no big deal …
General Motors Litigation

Dougherty, Hildre, Dudek & Haklar - located in San Diego, California - successfully litigated a class action lawsuit against General Motors Corporation involving 1995, 1996 and 1997 four door GM Tahoe and Yukon vehicles. This Class Action Lawsuit, which was certified by the Superior Court in San Diego County, claimed that "window stickers" and other point of sale materials inaccurately stated these vehicles had a 30 gallon fuel tank--which they do not.

After many years of litigation, General Motors agreed to compensate class members, including original purchasers and lessees of these vehicles, by providing a certificate worth up to $750.00 toward the retail purchase of a new Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac or GMC Truck.

For more information, contact the class action attorneys at Dougherty, Hildre, Dudek & Haklar. Serving San Diego, California.
___It sounds like a big deal to me but what do I know?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2cb0xl56][email protected][/email:2cb0xl56]
 

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xcel,

I concede on the bladder problem, but what can you do?

"In other words, yes, the Insight costs many ~ $8 - $11K. "
You did it again. Apples and oranges. If a new Insight is $14k, a new Prius is $20k. That's $6k difference, not $15k. If you want to compare used vehicles, I'm not positive what Classic Prius are selling for, but you really need to compare new to new, old to old!
 
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Hi GreenHybrid:

___Again, I like the new 04 Prius but did you purchase one for just $20,000? How many 04’s were purchased for just $20K? Not any that I have ever read of. List is $20,510 including shipping without any option packages including the rear wiper in package #1! For most, it is take what the dealer receives or go back to the bottom of the waiting list. That means many more package 7’s, 8’s and 9’s are being purchased then the consumer had originally planned, I am sure. You know what those cost, right?

___Don’t even bother bringing up the 01-03 Prius as that wasn’t in the cards … My 03 Corolla did better then many of those on the hwy and cost a hell of a lot less money brand new.

___In my case, it was not a question about if the 04 Prius was $15K more expensive, it was $15K more expensive then my Insight (28,000 mile when purchased), period.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1gakad3e][email protected][/email:1gakad3e]
 

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xcel,

I completely disagree.

Point 1: Standard options on the Prius probably exceed those of the Insight. Though most people vouch for more options, it is inconsistant to tack on an additional package when comparing price. Demand of a vehicle is not a factor when comparing prices of base MSRP.

Point 2: In order to compare, then, we must use a used 2004 Insight and a used 2004 Prius. Come back with those numbers, and then we'll talk. Just because the 01-03 were first generation doesn't mean you can compare a new 2004 Prius to a used 2000 Insight :)

Point 3: I have no idea where you gathered this. Even with ALL the options, the New Toyota Prius would be $12k more expensive. And, as stated in Point 1, that would not be a fair comparison.

:D
 
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Hi GreenHybrid:

___Then I will agree to disagree …

1. You can compare the new 04 Prius at MSRP or higher to anything you want but I have never paid more then MSRP for any automobile and I wasn’t about to do so for an already overpriced 04 Prius either.

2. I can compare the 04 Prius to anything if I so choose. The 00 and 01 Insight’s in comparison to the 04 Insight’s have not changed other then a std. CD-player vs. Cassette and internal/external color options in all practicality. There where a few other minor changes including the upgraded ECM but overall, they are the same. In other words, my slightly used 00 Insight gets me from point A to point B while having received a respectable 74.7 lmpg in these brutally windy and cold Chicago land temps and driving conditions over the last 6 weeks with a range of > 750 miles on each and every fill. The 04 Prius cannot hold a candle to this … At least the Prius has room for 4 (5 in a stretch).

3. I have gathered all of this information by perusing forums such as those listed above, this one, and Toyota and Honda’s web sites. I paid $10K for my Insight. This is where the $15K someone mentioned above comes from.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:lxhgqj7f][email protected][/email:lxhgqj7f]
 

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I have seen online that the Prius new with no packages is just a couple of thousand MSRP USD more than the Insight new with no packages MSRP USD. You are simply lucky or a good bargainer to get more than a couple thousand USD less for any new vehicle. I have also heard that a used Prius is usually worth more than a used Insight after the same amount of time depreciating in value.
As far as the discussion about the comparison between fuel mileage for the Prius and Insight in cold weather:
My father has a 2004 Prius and I have a manual transmission Insight. An other thing I want to say is that neither of us have any modifications to "warm up" the components. I must admit that it's not the perfect thing to compare a manual transmission to a "auto" (CVT). Anyway, my father is very consistantly getting 35-40 MPG at best in these sub freezing temps whereas I am very consistantly getting 45-55 MPG in the same temps. We also drive under the same conditions (City). Everyone has to understand that because batteries aren't as efficient in sub freezing temps, the Prius' use of electric only conditions is greatly decreased and therefore the eficiency 2004 Prius owners see is mostly the eficiency of the ICE alone. Because the Insight's main power source is the ICE with lower fuel to air ratios, the Insight's petrol eficiency is greater than the Prius' even in freezing temps.
Again, I want to make it clear that I agree with many people that both cars are great starter Hybrids. Hybrids can only get better from here...

Hybrids and their owners RULE!
~Martin
Recycled
2000 5 Spd
 
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Hi Motty82:

___Has anyone paid anywhere near MSRP for an Insight of any model in the last year or even two? The depreciation hit is simply too high to consider imho …

___As for bargains, this thread entitled Have you purchased a Ford lately?might help ;)

___As for the Prius’ lack of efficiency in colder weather, the Insight 5-speed’s lean burn capability is limited to 40 degrees and above without mods. Without lean burn, the Insight takes a rather large ~ 20 mpg + hit on the hwy. That is in excess of 25% loss in fuel efficiency before any other cold weather effect is considered. I doubt the Prius’ pack and overall economy suffers a 25% or greater hit just because the pack is cold for a short period of time until the cabin warms up?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1rxcfbc7][email protected][/email:1rxcfbc7]
 
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Hi Greenhybrid:

___You realize you are getting from Point A to Point B in a car that cost almost 3X the amount many here have paid for their Insight’s and receives a bit over ½ the mileage with only half the range, don’t you? Secondly, can you name someone that paid MSRP for an 04 Insight? I am sure you can find tens of thousands of owners that paid MSRP or more on the 04 Prius … Facts are facts in my book.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3790jkmc][email protected][/email:3790jkmc]
 

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xcel,

I know, I know. This has become a battle in the war. At least we're not flaming.

Yes, I do. But, the reason for this, while not a shocker, should be shocking. The Insight is not in demand and is victim to deflation in price because, frankly, no one wants it (generally speaking). It *may* be 3 times less expensive because you *may* be able to find an owner who *does not want* their car and *can't find anyone to buy it*. In addition, mileage is not the only way to compare the cars. The Prius was not made to exceed the Insight in mileage, but rather to offer a sedan with infinitesimal emissions and practical application.

Apples and oranges, apples and oranges...
 
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Hi Greenhybrid:

___Not shocking at all. Just a great bargain (in terms of the Insight that is ;)) the way I see it.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1li83uvs][email protected][/email:1li83uvs]
 
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