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> Most are not coming anywhere near EPA estimates

Please sight actual numbers. Being vague is doesn't accomplish anything.

My 2004 Prius has delivered a 45.4 MPG average after 6,663 miles of COLD WEATHER driving. That's exactly on par with EPA, when you read the fine print of the estimate values.

And last year, my 2001 Prius delivered a 50 MPG average throughout the entire summer. So it is very safe to expect mid 50's for my 2004 when it gets warmer, just like those down south are currently reporting.


> range is a big selling point with a Hybrid

No, it is a misconception.

Both the Honda & Toyota hybrids that specialize in EMISSIONS rather than EFFICIENCY have a bladder in the tank. That reduces capacity, resulting in a range reduction. And in the Toyota, it is to the point of reducing the range to the same as an average traditional vehicle of equal size with an automatic transmission.

Believing the system will deliver increased travel distance is the actual problem. The "add fuel" message is calibrated to provide a non-emergency capacity of 9 gallons, giving a range of 495 miles when the 55 MPG estimate average is achieved. That's totally realistic during the summer for some, and well within reasonable expectation for a vehicle.
 

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Hehehe... I have Master John. Watch out, Insight owners!

Though, let me point out that the fact that you're getting 45 shows that it isn't possible to achieve EPA estimates in real-life conditions. Yes, you can achieve it in optimal temperatures, etc, but that's precisely the point. It doesn't usually happen.
 
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Hi John1701a:

___Welcome back …
john1701a said:
Please sight actual numbers. Being vague is doesn't accomplish anything.
___Take a look at your own numbers and what you just said:
john1701a said:
“My 2004 Prius has delivered a 45.4 MPG average after 6,663 miles of COLD WEATHER driving”
___Apparently, you aren’t meeting the 04 Prius’ EPA estimates of 60 city/51 hwy and you just mentioned this by your own account? I have been exceeding EPA estimates in COLD WEATHER on each and every fill up since I purchased the Insight over 6 weeks ago. A quick look over the Edmunds and Priusonline forums will show similar 04 Prius mpg results as what you just posted.

___If range isn’t a big selling point with a Hybrid, why is it mentioned in the Toyota Prius FAQ on the Toyota website as shown here.
5. What is Prius' fuel economy?

Despite its larger size, the new 2004 Prius is one of the most fuel-efficient cars on the market -- due to its sleek aerodynamic shape and amazing Hybrid Synergy Drive® powertrain. With an EPA-estimated combined city/highway average of 55 mpg [5] and a tank size of about 12 gallons, Prius can travel well over 500 miles between fill-ups.
___Have you ever driven 500 miles between fill ups in your 04 Prius?
john1701a said:
Both the Honda & Toyota hybrids that specialize in EMISSIONS rather than EFFICIENCY have a bladder in the tank. That reduces capacity, resulting in a range reduction. And in the Toyota, it is to the point of reducing the range to the same as an average traditional vehicle of equal size with an automatic transmission.
___The CVT based/CARB rated SULEV Insight doesn’t have a bladder nor does it have a tank capacity problem as does the 04 Prius. If most only considered emissions, there would be more interest (I am speaking of interest, not in sales of the entire model line) in the Ford Focus, Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry PZEV’s then the Prius, HCH, or Insight.

___Lastly, being an experienced Prius owner/driver, I have yet to hear that you have even met EPA estimates on a single tank in your own 04 whereas I have never missed an EPA estimate and I had never driven a Hybrid in my life until just a few short weeks ago …

___Greenhybrid, you can follow some of our (John and myself) back and forth ramblings in the Edmunds - Toyota - Prius forums - “Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?” thread from a few months ago.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3rfjnzeh][email protected][/email:3rfjnzeh]
 

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I'm not going through this nonsense again. You know darn well the winter temperatures here are 80 degrees (YES, EIGHTY!) lower than the minimum for the EPA tests. So it is quite absurd to expect even remotely close results. It is also a very bad idea risking an empty tank in weather where exposed skin can frostbite within just a few minutes.

And now for something completely different...
 
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Hi John1701a:

___Most that follow the EPA numbers know about the 68 degree temps and yes, I have been driving in -5 to 20 degree F temps over the last month here on the Illinois/Wisconsin border as well. All the while still beating the EPA estimates.

___I had the chance to look over the many posts in the Edmunds - Prius Forums tonight … Guess what popped up? Hybrid car owners wonder: Where's the mileage?. There was even a small tidbit of your own later on in the article.
Toyota has been racking up complaints from owners beefing about not hitting the 51 mph highway/60 mpg city mileage advertised for its Prius hybrid. Low to mid 40s is closer to reality …
___Maybe more should take heed of this article given the mileage many Prius owners are actually receiving. Many (not all unfortunately) Insight owners here are fortunate to meet or exceed EPA estimates on a fairly consistent basis even in cold weather with the proper mods and/or techniques. In warm weather, some not only exceed EPA estimates but absolutely crush them! Just the other night I had an 82.6 mpg segment over 95 miles when it was 26 - 32 degrees F and there wasn’t a stitch of wind. The last 9 miles were in a blizzard and I lost 2.5 mpg in that short of stretch because of it :(

___All that needs to be said is that the 00 – 04 Insight can meet or exceed EPA estimates no matter the weather or temperature in many cases. Rain, snow, and cold do kill its mileage capabilities like most other automobiles but not usually to the extent that EPA estimates are only a dream as with the 04 Prius apparently? In other words, the Prius is quite a bit tougher nut to crack so to speak.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:7w9vpe5z][email protected][/email:7w9vpe5z]
 

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John, I enjoy visiting your site, love your enthusiasm and see that you give honest and complete data. Toyota only claimed to have increased the new Prius efficiency by 15 percent. I believe your data will in the course of a year verify this. Perhaps you will do even better. Anyone on this site would be very pleased if Honda came out with a 15 percent better 2005 Insight.

Toyota doesn't own the EPA. If their figures are high that is their problem. Some people were reporting on this site that they believed the new Prius would achieve 85 miles per US gallon! Stevo is claiming the Yaris gets 130 KM per litre, or 371 miles per gallon. :roll: Ya, Riiiiight! People really want to believe this even if it seems unlikely with todays technology.

Don't mind us Insighters. We are a clanish and proud lot, and having a little Scottish blood myself, I feel right at home. :D
 

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> Guess what popped up?

Know that reference is just plain lame, since THAT'S ME IN THE ARTICLE!

I know of the writer's motives, since I talked with him directly for the article. And it was rather clear that he was fishing for a rather specific reference.

People can say what they want and choose very specific data to make their particular point. But you can't deny what the averages show you, even though you keep trying.
 
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Hi John1701a:

john1701a said:
People can say what they want and choose very specific data to make their particular point. But you can't deny what the averages show you, even though you keep trying.
___I don’t know where you are headed with this? The mpg average you have achieved of 45.4 mpg in your own 04 Prius to date is 18.1 % below the combined EPA estimates of the 04 Prius, 11% below the Hwy EPA estimates of the 04 Prius, and 24.3% below the City EPA estimates of the 04 Prius. The averages in my 00 Honda Insight are 74.7 mpg to date (I have only owned it for 6 weeks) which is 6.7% above the EPA hwy estimates while not even taking into account the lower Combined or City EPA estimates. It is colder in MN. then in Northern IL. but it is not that much colder … Hopefully your mileage will improve dramatically once spring approaches. I know it will for all of us Insighter’s as well.

___As for break in accounting for lower mileage, Billy had an almost 90 mpg average in a partial across the country drive and back in his brand new 03 5-speed late last year if that makes any difference.

___In regards to the reference from you, did you not read the above: “There was even a small tidbit of your own later on in the article?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:qc0nvzqv][email protected][/email:qc0nvzqv]
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I kind of stopped reading and started skimming several pages back when the talk turned to available options. To judge a car based on available options is just kind of dumb (in my opinion). Of course, I'm the type of guy that will drive a stripped, race prepped RX-7 with a bridgeported engine that hardly idles with an on/off clutch in rush hour traffic in 40 degree C weather and not for a second wish I had air conditioning. I don't give a rats *** about how many cup holders my car has :) . Power steering, A/C, ABS and power anything except windows (make them easy to lower at the end of the track) suck. :)

Anyway, I'm not saying the Prius is a bad car. I just don't like the styling. I believe that the drivetrain is inferior to that of the Honda IMA system. I love the idea that I can drive in EV mode, but that is moot based on the fact that you can't plug in the car. Everytime I look at the "Synergy" drive system, I always think how complicated and convoluted it is. It's like Mazda's new hybrid electric gasoline hydrogen turbocharged Renesis rotary. Almost like the engineers were just very, very bored one day.

I also don't think that you can even begin to compare the mileage between the Prius and Insight. It's an apples to oranges comparison for sure, but to brag about receiving an average of 45 MPG on a Prius when 45 MPG is the worst ever mileage I have achieved on my Insight is just strange. I'm at 45 MPG right now, but that's because I have not driven a trip of over 10 KM in the past 3 weeks, and we have 3 feet of snow. :) Once that clears up, I expect to go back to my normal 70 MPG in the city, and 95+ MPG on the highway.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad car. I'm just saying that I don't like it. IF you have 4 people to move, then by all means get a Prius. It's better then an SUV.
 

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"...45 MPG is the worst ever mileage I have achieved on my Insight..."

How'd you manage that? Worst stretch I've done was about 55 mpg over about 70 miles. That includes going over an 8900' pass, in a snowstorm. With tire chains on about half the way :)

As far as the range between fillups, I can't say that it was a selling point, but I sure like it. I usually go 650-700 miles on a tank, and fill up when there's still a bar or two showing on the gauge. I get 66-68 mpg in the winter, 73-75 in the summer, doing a lot of mountain driving, and not really trying hard to max it out.

Anyway, I'm glad the Prius is there for people who want it, but I wouldn't trade. I want two seats, a hatchback, and manual transmission. If it doesn't have those, I don't care if it gets 150 mpg :)
 
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Hi All:

___EPA City Ratings:
  • 00-03 Honda Insight: 61 mpg
    [/*:m:8vjtw6nz]
  • 2004 Honda Insight: 60 mpg
    [/*:m:8vjtw6nz]
  • 2004 Toyota Prius: 60 mpg[/*:m:8vjtw6nz]
___Look back at Motty82’s real world city comparison of his 2000 5-speed Insight and his fathers 2004 Prius. Fortunately, I am a mostly hwy driver where the Insight does pretty well …

___James, I hear ya ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:8vjtw6nz][email protected][/email:8vjtw6nz]
 
G

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Hi Greenhybrid:

___So are you trying to save the environment? Reduce our dependence on foreign oil? Maybe you are just trying to barely beat what a $7,000 to $12,000 less expensive $14,000 Toyota Corolla LE can achieve in terms of fuel economy? The next time you are driving by yourself or with one other in your 04 Prius, think about that sometime? I am sure you drive with 2 or less in your Prius most of the time, right? If so, you sure are doing a hell of a job wasting our resources in comparison to many an Insighter. Take a look at this link if you need a refresher. While you are contemplating the numbers achieved, look up Greenhouse gas emissions on the EPA site sometime and maybe you will figure it out.

___Greenhybrid is the misnomer in this regards if I do say so myself.

___As for depreciation, starting from $10K, the wheels could fall off and I would still be above water over what you are going to get hit with in 4 or 5 years … You know about $9,000 TIV’s for 01 Prius’ w/ 60,000 miles on them, right? An $11,000 hit in 3 + years which is more then what many here are paying for their Insight’s outright.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3vubopnn][email protected][/email:3vubopnn]
 

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GreenHybrid said:
It's interesting to see the bias in hybrid related sites. Where the Prius is popular, it's beautiful. Where the Insight is popular, IT's beautiful. Can't we all just get along? :)

So you know, I'm a Prius guy. The Prius is beautiful. The Insight isn't :p

My initial description of a 2004
Prius when I first saw one (at a mixed hybrid gathering):

"How best to describe a 2004 Prius? Imagine that a Honda Insight and a
current Prius got together and had a child, and that child grew up to be
bigger than its parents. That's a 2004 Prius."
 

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xcel,

The Prius' emissions ratings are superior to most anything that's out there. Mileage has little to do with emissions.

Secondly, if you're trying to tell me that I'm hurting the environment by driving a Prius, you need to seriously re-evaluate your stance. There are but 3 or so hybrids in the United States right now, and you are belittling one of the only others. Is this really what you need to be doing? Not every hybrid is going to get the same mileage, but your blatant attack on a vehicle that is attempting to improve its surroundings is misguided. Think about that.

Lastly, when the Insight is no more and the Prius is still being produced, you can let me know how much you can get for an Insight, considering they will quickly become a part of the past.
 

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xcel,

A fuel-cell Hummer could get 20 MPG but have no emissions. Where's your correlation?

"So are you trying to save the environment? Reduce our dependence on foreign oil?... The next time you are driving by yourself or with one other in your 04 Prius, think about that sometime?"

How much is a VW bug worth?
 
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