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Being a glutton for punishment. I purchased replacement cells (sticks) from Shenzhen Kingkong Electronics Co,LTD via alibaba. Specs say they are 10AH. While they guaranteed me that they came with temperature sensors, that was not correct. They simply had a thin metal strip that had no PTC characteristics. At any rate I replaced the PTC's with factory sensors from old sticks. The battery appears to work but.....

I get repeated get p1447 errors with the 77 flash code. This would indicate a deteriorated pack. I have grid charged it several times, and measured voltages for balance. It seems like it should be fine. Last time it errored each pair of sticks(room temp and 24 hr rest) measured between 15.690 and 15.77 Vdc which should imply a SOC of 84 to 86%.

Any ideas as to how to keep my BCM from erroring out?

Is it possible the BCM does not like the higher capacity?

I thought I have read that bumble bee uses higher capacity cells without a BCM change, is that correct?

I believe these batteries are absolutely inferior to the origional panasonics, I haven't measured them for capacity yet, but it is on my todo list. When run harder I have gotten battery over temp errors as well, but I seem to be able to avoid that with gentle driving. The max temp of these cells are lower and they have a lower recommended charging rate. They claim to have sold these to many ppl without complaint, but I don't see how. I have not seen anything on this site about this mfg.
 

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These are inferior batteries.

When we're they purchased?
How long were they installed before you had problems?

Read through the related KingKong posts.

They may not be able to work properly. Time will tell. Please continue to report your progress.
 

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probably getting a lot of variation under load, though i never really see anyone mention that as reason for the codes to pop up. but why else do the 1447 and 1449 codes almost always crop up DURING assist?
 

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IIRC the contact inside the cells has a much less surface contact ,Mike Dabrowski ansd a couple of other battery experts dissembled and pointed out to the manufacturer/seller from china in some of the threads from several years ago.
big risks....
i think it creates possibilities for high resistance at high voltages, high temperature at the contact points and failure or possibly fire. Also no way to achieve any efficiency/output even if the rest of the cells is up to the task .
 

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what else did you expect, after reading the other thread?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I certainly wish I had found the link--

7.2V 6500mah/10000mah replacement battery stick for Honda Civic and Insight 2003-2005

-- before I purchased these but for whatever reason my search on this forum did not come up with that thread.

I would agree with Lyger in that thread where he discussed it being difficult on this foum to separate out the some of the more opinionated threads from the technical ones. I read dozens of threads looking for battery recommendations and did not find the ones quoted in the reply. I guess that is on me.

To answer some questions and reiterate my question.
I have had these batteries installed for about 9 months and 10K miles. And like I said earlier, I have only had one thermal fault. The longest I have gone without a 1447 (77) code is about 3 weeks. It will almost always come on during a 200 mile trip, which I make every couple months.

I fully understand I will be replacing these again with one of the other brands discussed in the aforementioned thread. Money is not the real issue here. (one reasons I was looking for custom stick mfg. is I have 2 ford escape hybrids that will be needing batteries replaced soon and I have yet to find someone that will do this other than ford, I have had good results getting Chinese companies to do these kind of things for me in the past since most things are done by hand anyway. I would have thought the cells were machine built, but alas, not.)

But in the mean time, and I restate, does anyone know why it would throw the p1447 code and is there anything that can be done about it? I could understand if it was thermal or stick mismatch, but that does not seem to be the case here. It seems a lot of people have spent a lot of time understanding this charging system. I am very interested in the technical issues involved here. I really don't want to start another conversation of why Chinese products are suspect. I know that, I tried to research it, I got it wrong, I will live with that.

Thanks you for the analysis by Eli, Mike and others. I really appreciate the technical information you put in the above listed thread.
 

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P1447 77 is Battery Module Deterioration according to http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/downloads/relateddocuments/pcodes_to_blink_code_p1.gif

My understanding of how this works is this usually comes from tap measurements not returning values that the BCM expects. So one of the taps is dropping out earlier than the other ones or perhaps getting higher voltages than the other ones. The question is how to figure out which tap is doing that.

I can think of a few ways of trying to figure this out, in order of least painful to most painful.

1. Put a discharge load on the pack, and measure all the tap voltages. I'd try to put a pretty high load like more than 300W, maybe 3 300W in parallel. Now see if you can find the deviant tap reading to narrow it down to the stick pair that's bad.
2. Let the pack sit for a couple weeks, and measure pack/tap voltages for excessive self discharge.
3. Get the Turnigy Reaktor and test the sticks one by one.
4. Use a search algorithm to suss out the bad sticks over time. This would require having some known good sticks, and slowly replace say 6 sticks at a time until you find the group of 6 that has bad ones, then replace 2 at a time, then finally 1 at a time.

Also I'd suggest you do the PTC bypass, as apparently PTC serves no useful function. Any protection they're supposed to provide is superseded by duplicate thresholds that would be trigged by tap voltage measurements.

Alternatively, you can go buy a 40 pack or 60 pack of used sticks, and try to find 20 good sticks out of there. It seems that with grid charging will end up being more robust than these Chinese sticks, and could save you more time than trying to salvage these sticks. It doesn't seem like you need to buy new sticks to get many good years of use out of these batteries as long as you're willing to grid charge periodically. Just avoid buying sticks from hot states like AZ, TX or other southern states.

Edit: As for Chinese sticks, my understanding is that the green ones, specifically yabo are decent and can last many years. These are rated 6500 mAh, like the factory spec ones. But all that mAh rating is a misnomer in these cars anyways. What's more important is low internal resistance under high amp load. Considering a set of these sticks costs $1300, and you can get 140 to 260 used OEM sticks for that same $1300, you should be able to get a good set of 20 buying used for much less. If your goal is to not have to grid charge as regular maintenance, the green Chinese sticks can actually work well for that purpose at least for several years of regular driving.

You didn't tell us anything about your original set of sticks. There's a high probability you can throw them back in your back after they've sat around for a year, charge it up, and they'll work more amazingly than you could ever expect.
 

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Caution.

1447 (77) is a battery deterioration code which means the capacity has reduced to less than 10% of the expected normal amount. Has it been recalibrating a lot (pos/neg).

If you are 100% sure of the code, and it is not heat/thermal related you could block the code using a BCM interceptor but I would not recommend it without knowing a lot more about why it is coding..

Some detailed stick level examination and analysis using a decent cycler/charger would be good etc

Blocking the 77 code would leave you with a pack with an ever decreasing capacity, frequent recals and poor mpg, that would be very frustrating, and possibly lead to a more catastrophic battery failure. (Fire)

You basically need to chuck those away (chalk it up to experience) and get some decent sticks...

I strongly discourage you from doing the ptc bypass on these dodgy sticks.
It may save you from a burn down later if you continue to use them .....
 

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... and possibly lead to a more catastrophic battery failure. (Fire)
This is true, you are basically QA for these (blue?) sticks. It is not an exaggeration to recommend that you carry a fire extinguisher in the car as you are putting these sticks through their paces in conditions that probably nobody else has before.

Now I'm wondering if Peter carries a fire extinguisher when he's his own guinea pig with them fancy Li-Ion and Ultra-Caps =D
 

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To make these sticks work you would need to perform the battery current hack in reverse, reducing the amount of regen and assist.

From what I've seen you probably would never want more than 20 amps out of those sticks

So yeah, not suitable
 

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The 10Ah KingKong sticks have the same internal resistance when new as a Honda stick when completely dead....

There's pretty much nothing you can do to make them work. They are unsuitable for use in the car. I'm actually quite shocked it lasted 9mo.

(one reasons I was looking for custom stick mfg. is I have 2 ford escape hybrids that will be needing batteries replaced soon and I have yet to find someone that will do this other than ford, I have had good results getting Chinese companies to do these kind of things for me in the past since most things are done by hand anyway. I would have thought the cells were machine built, but alas, not.)
We have new(aftermarket) and reconditioned(used) Ford Escape batteries available.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
OK, that is progress, thanks for the input.

I do have to stand corrected, after going back and checking some notes and talking to my son who also drives the car. We get codes P1449 ( 78 ) and P1447 (77) . More the former than the latter. I assume there is some difference in the conditions that cause these but the text descriptions are the same, battery deterioration.

I have brought out wires to measure voltages for every 2 sticks and conectorized that interface. My intent was to make a voltmeter to monitor the sticks. So I do have a way to check stick voltages on the fly, just haven't built the voltmeters yet.
or....
I have seen the modules in the BCM they are using to monitor stick voltages, you know the processor has that information. I gather that information does not come out on the can bus. I suppose I could solder some wires in the BCM to monitor the stick voltages, since they have already tackled the voltage isolation problem. I have been resisting drilling holes in the BCM to bring those leads out.

The battery does recalibrate very frequently.

The previous battery was throwing the exact same codes. I didn't do anything at the time to measure the old sticks. I still have the sticks and have debated trying to refurb them via a few charge/discharge cycles. Just haven't yet built a fixture to do that. Sounds like I need to move that up on my project list.

I have not bypassed the PTC, in fact I went thru some effort to put the stock PTC strips on the chinese batteries (they were shipped with some useless nickle strips, I did test them compared to the stock units and they were nothing alike) I suspected the internal resistance was higher and the cells were less rugged so I certainly wanted to make sure that mechanism was in place to shut down the battery. At least I assumed that is what it did. The PTC is highly nonlinear so my guess it it is not so much measuring a temperature as acting as a trigger at an overheat situation. Hopefully this will help keep it from catching fire. And yes I carry an extinguisher but not sure it will do much good. Too much metal in the way.

Not sure how to intercept the P1447/P1449 codes. Is that sent from the BCM to whatever acts as the central OBDCII processor. I have done a fair amount of CAN bus monitoring in the past but never tried to intercept a code. Seems you would need 2 can transceivers with a processor in between to pass thru/intercept as required. A fair amount of circuitry/programing, does someone make a PCB to do this reasonably easily?
 
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