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Discussion Starter #1
You might remember some months back I was having a "lugging" problem with my 2001 CVT. When it was found to be the transmission, Honda America actually replaced it for free.
:shock: :D :D
Awesome! Honda Rocks!

And the new tranny worked for a month or two...but then the jerks came back. It's mostly when I am on the highway and take my foot off the gas. The car lurches and the tack pops up.
So, I thought...EGR valve. that's what usually causes the jerks, right? Er, no.
new valve (entire assembly actually) ((and this one *I* paid for)) and it's still jerking on deceleration when the foot is off the gas, and not on the brake. It's bad enough I am afraid to drive it, since on the snow one jerk could put you in the ditch.
Because when the car lurches it's almost like the brakes are catching, i had them check the brakes. no problem there.

suggestions? surely it can't be the tranny again?
:cry: :cry: :cry:
 

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Well im not sure exactly what you are trying to say, do you thing the "jerks" are tranny related or engine related??

My understanding of your post is that if you went to the trouble of replacing an EGR valve then maybe you suspect something other then the transmission, especially since you have a brand new CVT with the same old problems

Broken ground wires have been a solution to some people with unknown "Gremlins" in their car. Just look at them and see if they are very coaroded or broken. If they are you might as well replace them anyway to eliminate that as a problem
 

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The CVT section in the shop manual is very long, but perhaps this might be helpful:

"Excessive shock when accelerating and decelerating: Check the D indicator, and check for loose connectors."

Might be worth doing some poking around on the various connectors and wires to make sure that it isn't something outside the transmission...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
actually, I have no freaking idea what is causing the jerks.
I'm clueless about what to try next.
:?

I just didn't understand how the ground wires might affect the transmission or RPMs. And since I know there is an electrical thing going on, which until you made your suggestion I had assumed was completely separate....

I'm desperately grasping for explanations.
Particularly if they don't involve the transmission again :D


edited to add: Thanks Dougie! I will add it to my list.
 

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For me, Rough idel and RPM drops were the cause of a Bad 02 sensor that did NOT through a light nor was it able to be diagnosed by honda.

As with your "jerkyness" in regards to the ground cable, I dont know for sure but like i said it is worth taking a peak under the hood. Look just enderneath the air filter box and you will see some ground cables there. Someone else will probably be able to explain better or have more experience in this then me
 

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The Insight has two engines. Control of the electric engine is done electronically. When you take your foot off the gas the engine may become a generator, recharging the batteries. At this point large currents begin to flow through the ground wires in the engine compartment. If the ground cables are damaged their resistance can cause large voltage spikes which may be interpreted as digital commands by the computer(s). The human analogy would be Parkinson's disease where damaged nerves cause jerky muscle movement. Damaged grounding cables will cause a number of seemingly unrelated problems. If cable deterioration continues, at some point it will render the engine inoperative.

In your case it may not be the ground cables, but this is a known issue for the Insight.

Hope this helps.
 

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Great explanation Kip...Those were my thoughts as well how ground
cables could be related to the problem.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

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b1shmu63 said:
The Insight has two engines. Control of the electric engine is done electronically. When you take your foot off the gas the engine may become a generator, recharging the batteries. At this point large currents begin to flow through the ground wires in the engine compartment.
Whoa! Hold on a second. :)

The ONLY wires that IMA current (assist or regen) flow through are the large orange cables. Checking the service manual will show that the motor and associated HV are totally isolated from the 12V system and thus do not share a ground.

However, I do agree that the ground cables are something that EVERY Insight (well, every car owner really since all automotive grounding systems seem to suck) owner needs to check if they are getting weird problems. One of the main reasons is that many sensors and harnesses on the engine (think ignition, O2, etc.) use the engine as ground. If you have intermittant connection between the engine and body, you then have an intermittant ground.

Replacement ground cables are available at any auto parts store, but AVOID the ground "straps". You want sealed cables that are properly jacketed with either cast or soldered lugs. This will keep corrosion out of the cables, which is what kills the stock open ground cables. Thoroughly clean the areas on the body and engine where the cables bolt on, and COVER the area and bolt hole with dielectric grease. Smear a liberal amount of dielectric grease on the cable lug and then install. Torque them securely.

Once grounds are attended to, other troubleshooting can begin. Specifically, jerkiness can be attributed usually (in this order on the Insight):

-EGR valve. Since you've done this, we can exclude it.
-EGR passages. Have all the EGR passages in the intake and cylinder head been cleaned up? Unbalanced EGR can be just as bad as a clogged EGR valve. Unfortunatly to do this the intake manifold must be removed.
-O2 sensors. Specifically the LAF sensor. It's a little pricey at around $250, but the only way to test unless it has grossly failed is to swap in a new unit.
-Ignition. Condition of spark plugs and coils? And their associate grounds (coils ground through bolt into engine)?
-Air temp sensor. The air temp sensor is often ignored, but it is very important. The ECU uses manifold pressure and air temperature to calculate air density and engine load. If the air temp sensor is giving odd values, this calculation will be off and the engine will run with an incorrect A/F mixture. There are checks for this sensor in the factory service manual, but they're cheap to replace.
-Engine coolant temp. The ECU uses the ECT to determine the temperature of the engine and adjust it's A/F mixture appropriately. The Insight's engine temp can vary wildly so this sensor is quite important. Checks in the factory service manual, but again it's cheap to replace (though a bit of a pain).

This is all assume that it is not in fact the new transmission, but since I don't have any experience with the CVT, I can't help you there. :)
 

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Spot on Aaron :!: except ;) that in most Honda systems the IAT (Intake Air Tempertaure) sensor's bias is minimal. A faulty ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) sensor can have a major impact in A/F ratio.

IMO bug_girl's symptoms of engine RPM surge on decel are more likely to be transmission related (sorry bug_girl) than some kind of engine surge. However, the grounds are a cheap and easy preventative maintenance proceedure that shouldn't be overlooked and given her location are probably due. FYI bug-girl when they fail you'll be walking. Inspect and repair if needed ASAP!

Dougie's suggestion of a loose or corroded transmission electrical connector is also a good first place to look. And may be attributed to a "defect in workmanship" related to the transmissions repair.AFAIK your replacement transmission has a 12/12 parts and labor warranty too! :)

If your symptoms are readily reproducable on a road test take it back to the dealer that did your transmission work and see what they say.

HTH! :)
 

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Aaron, thanks for clarifying that. As grounding problems have been associatee with rough idle and loss of efficiency I assumed that they shared a common ground with the power 12 volt and electronic systems. From what you are saying it sounds like a 3 phase system. 8)

Nevertheless, it still would not surprise me if bad grounding was messing with the IMA system.
 

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Bug_Girl, how many miles do you have on the new transmission? I had a very similar problem and it like to have drove me nuts. My transmission was also replaced. This fixed it for about 30K miles. I then per the maint schedule had the fluid changed (at the dealership). I drove it another 10K miles and started having trouble again with it jerking when you start to accelerate and just overall poor transmission performance. One night I was looking thru the manual and found the procedure for the transmission service. It calls for the fluid to be changed a total of 4 times durring the service. It was not possible forthe dealer to do this given the price that I was charged (it was too low to cover that much fluid).

Long story short, I did what the manual said and it seems to have fixed the problem. I don't think the dealers flush the old fluid out properly. That is the reason for the 4 changes since 1 does not remove all of the old fluid.

I hope this helps,

Jason
 

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One more thought... has the 12 volt battery under the hood been replaced? It should be about time for it to go. Mine went out after a visit to the drive in movie this summer. A weak battery can cause all sorts of weird problems as you have probably read in some of the other treads.

Jason
 

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Insightful Trekker said:
Spot on Aaron :!: except ;) that in most Honda systems the IAT (Intake Air Tempertaure) sensor's bias is minimal. A faulty ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) sensor can have a major impact in A/F ratio.
I don't want to nit-pick, but in any speed density EFI system the IAT is one of the most important inputs. From the MAP sensor you can only determine engine load, and the ECT sensor provides the temperature of the engine (duh :) ). However, in order to calculate air density and thus the amount of fuel required for that volume of air, we need a temperature measurement. I've seen aftermarket speed-density EFI systems that will operate without an IAT sensor (the Microtech system on my RX-7 has this option) but tuning them is always very spotty. The car will run great one day but significant changes in air temperature (either via weather or something that heats the intake like heat soak or a turbocharger) screw up the A/F ratios. In a turbo engine this can be disastrous as a lean condition (caused by cooler intake air) generally means engine death...but I digress. If I had my fuel map in a postable format it could demonstrate how important the IAT is. At some points in the air temp correction map (this map is applied to all fuel and ignition maps) injector time can be effected by as much as 40%. I'd call that significant. :)

ECT is primarily used (in a normal car anyway) for the start and warmup process. Once the engine is warm the thermostat keeps (or tries, in the case of an Insight) the engine at a fairly constant temp and from then on the ECT input is only a small correction value...Of course the Insight's temperature can vary wildly, but that's another story... :)

b1shmu63 said:
Aaron, thanks for clarifying that. As grounding problems have been associatee with rough idle and loss of efficiency I assumed that they shared a common ground with the power 12 volt and electronic systems. From what you are saying it sounds like a 3 phase system. 8)
In fact it is. ;)

It's a good thing that the 144V system is isolated, especially with ground issues. Otherwise imagine brushing against the IMA motor with one hand while touching the body with another on a car with faulty grounds...It's no fun becoming a ground yourself. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
ding ding ding! InisghtfulTreker wins the prize.

Apparently they put in "regular" red transmission fluid when they replaced the transmission, not CVT fluid.
:evil: :evil:

So, new transmission fluid, and crossed fingers.
Interestingly, they also got some electrical codes--I'll post those when i find where I wrote them down.

sigh.
*bug beats head on desk*

Insightful Trekker said:
And don't forget the "new" :? CVT specific ATF. :)

See:

Honda reintroduces CVT specific ATF
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3364

HTH! :)
 

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bug_girl said:
Apparently they put in "regular" red transmission fluid when they replaced the transmission, not CVT fluid.
:evil: :evil:
I bet the mechanic thought your car was the weirdest Civic he'd ever seen. :roll:
 
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