[sputnik]

Something's wrong w/ David's Insight. The MIL engine light has been on solid for two weeks. (Gas cap tight and premium gas; he hoped this would fix it). There is absolutely NO Assist. When I drove the car today it quickly went into a recalibration, and would only charge back up to half guage. It's ailing.

After reading several similar posts, I'm guessing this is an O2 sensor problem and have a few questions:

1. What are the two O2 sensors in the Insight...is one the Air Ratio Sensor and the other the Linear Air Fuel? What exactly does the Air Ratio Sensor do?

2. Are faulty O2 sensors the only cause for a check engine light?

3. The ECM recall was supposed to be fixed. Are the O2/emissions components warranteed for 3 years or 8 years? The sensors look expensive.

4. This is really grasping at straws...but, could the fact that my husband rarely uses his seatbelt play any role?... could the belt alarm lights and bells somehow be tied to the engine light?

5. Would it be worthwhile to stop by AutoZone tomorrow and request a code check?

Silver has an appointment Monday at the dealership so we should know more soon.

Thank-you ...and grateful for any Assist.

 

[Dougie]

It's almost certainly not the seatbelt. Although it should be!

 

[Aaron Cake]

1. What are the two O2 sensors in the Insight...is one the Air Ratio Sensor and the other the Linear Air Fuel? What exactly does the Air Ratio Sensor do?

There are two oxygen sensors in the 2000 Insight. The 1st is called the "LAF sensor" (Lean Air Fuel Sensor). The 2nd is a standard O2 sensor. The LAF sensor is mounted on the three way cat directly after the exhaust manifold. The 2nd sensor is mounted just before the NOX cat. The LAF sensor is the primary input that the car uses to determine it's A/F ratio. It is very important that this sensor is reading correctly, or all kinds of drivability problems will be present. If it is wildly wrong, then a code will be logged and the CEL light will illuminate.

It has been known that this sensor, when bad, will turn off IMA assist.

2. Are faulty O2 sensors the only cause for a check engine light?

Not at all. There are hundreds of parameters that the ECM monitors, and almost any fault will light the CEL.

3. The ECM recall was supposed to be fixed. Are the O2/emissions components warranteed for 3 years or 8 years? The sensors look expensive.

Don't know about your warranty, you're in the US. I think it's 8 years/80K miles. The LAF is about $300 Canadian, the secondary O2 is about $400 Canadian. Should give you an idea of the price.

4. This is really grasping at straws...but, could the fact that my husband rarely uses his seatbelt play any role?... could the belt alarm lights and bells somehow be tied to the engine light?

Nope. But he should wear the seatbelt since flying through the windshield kind of sucks.

5. Would it be worthwhile to stop by AutoZone tomorrow and request a code check?

If they will do it for free or a modest cost, then yes. Just don't have them reset it.

 

[bfivelover]

4. This is really grasping at straws...but, could the fact that my husband rarely uses his seatbelt play any role?... could the belt alarm lights and bells somehow be tied to the engine light?

Nope. But he should wear the seatbelt since flying through the windshield kind of sucks.

I second that. Just had someone on my mail route die when he was thrown threw the windshield because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt. I see his widow nearly every day. Not a pleasant situation

 

[sputnik]

All the seatbelt comments are completely correct and I will keep working on it...as I have for 16 years. On family outings we usually get everybody buckled in, but the Gordo Cooper solo trips are more difficult to influence.

Mr. Cake, thank-you especially for answering the technical questions as well as for encouraging safety. Your information on the O2 sensors was great...it made the IC encyclopedia article more understandable and it really helped on the visit to the dealership.

Silver is still in sickbay. The Honda techs retrieved a Code P1164, lean burn failure, on the #1 O2 sensor and so this will need to be replaced. It should cost $368. The sensors have a 3 year warranty here.

The mechanics also retrieved several "embedded" codes (How do codes get embedded? :?: ). I believe these were numbered 23A for an engine speed fault and 541 and 611 for IMA battery voltage faults. Based on the two battery trouble codes, they plan to replace the IMA battery under the 8/80 warranty.

The new battery and sensor are ordered but it may be a few days until they arrive.

 

[highwater]

Kathleen wrote; The Honda techs retrieved a Code P1164, lean burn failure, on the #1 O2 sensor and so this will need to be replaced

.

I bet Aaron would have liked to have had Honda tech admit to lean burn a while back when he was going thru his ordeal. IIRC he was told lean burn did not exist.

Randall

 

[kapps]

Kathleen wrote; The Honda techs retrieved a Code P1164, lean burn failure, on the #1 O2 sensor and so this will need to be replaced

.

I bet Aaron would have liked to have had Honda tech admit to lean burn a while back when he was going thru his ordeal. IIRC he was told lean burn did not exist.

Randall

lol. Same thing happened to me when the ERG valve was going. There aren't many techs out there who know about the Insight.

 

[sputnik]

Here's an update on little Silver... the Honda dealership received the new IMA battery and #1 O2 sensor and installed both last week. They planned to retain the original BCM-MCM and reprogram these for the new battery, but this was not successful. When the tech ran through the post-battery-installation checks he got P1447 and ??77 errors which indicated the BCM-MCM were not networking correctly with the new battery.

So new BCM-MCM computers are on order. The dealership doesn't expect these to arrive until October 31st! Meanwhile, the say it's OK to drive the car. They said the IMA light will be on & the battery and electric motor will be non-functional but it will not harm the new battery or the car to drive it around.

Does this sound correct? Are there any driving precautions to be heeded? Will the new battery be OK just sitting back there?

I read HalfNHalf's "EEEK IMA LIGHT" post and it sounds like his Insight also drew a P1447 error and that he also is waiting till November for a new BCM-MCM. Is Honda low on the BCM-MCM computers right now?

Thank-you in advance for any Assist.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Interesting. It has been reliably reported that installing newer MCM & BCM controllers with an old IMA pack is functional. Seems like it might not be the other way around :?: Hmmm...

It would be GREAT if you could get this one pinned down for the group :!:

It has been increasingly reported that the MCM & BCM's are hard to get.

And yes, you'll be driving a "gutless wonder" without the IMA assist but AFAIK no harm or damage will occur to the IMA batteries.

Hope this "chrg"'s you up enough to go the distance

 

[highwater]

Driving around without the IMA functions.......just turn the breaker (IMA disconnect) off in the back under the carpet. Looks to me like the dealer would have done this if it isn't going to work anyway. Same function as the M word in mode 1. Its not too gutless this way, just use a few more rpm's when starting from a dead stop (5spd). May still show the IMA lights on the dash, don't know.
It is easy to do, just (1) remove the rear carpet, (2) remove the little access panel with 2 bolts 10mm I believe, (3) remove the hex head machine screw that locks the switch from being thrown, will need 5mm allen wrench here, (4) pull and remove the little RED keeper that prohibits the switch from moving, (5) move switch to the off position. Then start at step (4) and go backwards. The switch is just like a breaker in the electrical panel in your house. You will not be able to get to the high voltage components because they are inside the bigger aluminum box.
Randall

 

[Kevin Dougherty]

Won't this kill the charging from the DC-DC converter, leaving you to the mercy of the 12 volt battery?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

AFAIK the DC-DC converter is working as long as the "standard" 12v charge warning lite on the dash is black when driving. Don't remember if switching off the IMA breaker also turns off the converter.

But you will be at the 12v batteries "mercy".

 

[highwater]

Kathleen wrote:

The dealership doesn't expect these to arrive until October 31st! Meanwhile, the say it's OK to drive the car. They said the IMA light will be on & the battery and electric motor will be non-functional

Answer to the converter question.....Yes. She was without it anyway, no IMA battery to convert from. IMHO. This switch throwing is just to ease one's mind that that (gr) stuff is out of the loop. :wink:

Also see:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3109&highlight=main+breaker

Where Rick Wrote:

Don't mess with throwing the main circuit breaker unless you just want to tool around and see what it is like without IMA for a brief while. It will kill everything on the high voltage side of things. You'll start the engine using the backup starter motor and won't have the DC/DC to provide 12 volt power so if you get yourself in a situation where the 12 volt dies sufficiently your stuck

Can I say that that :?: 8)
Randall

 

[Kevin Dougherty]

I may be wrong, but killing the main switch will also killl the starter generator motor, which ultimately powers the DC-DC (144-12 volt)converter.

Leaving the switch alone will allow it to continue to charge the 12 volt system eventhough the rest of the IMA system ist kaput.

Ist das nicht zo?

 

[Aaron Cake]

The main breaker shuts off EVERYTHING to do with the IMA pack. Battery, motor controller, DC-DC, everything. Wiring diagram in the factory service manual pretty much confirms this.

 

[sputnik]

We are at three months and still no computers for little "Silver" The October 31 ETA came and one computer had arrived but not the other...our service advisor said he did not know if they had the BCM or MCM, but whichever one was lacking should arrive November 11. They would hold onto the one controller until the other arrived. Well, it never arrived and now the next ETA is December 4! When asked, "why??" the dealership could only say that production of this part in Japan was backed up...but this time David had some sort of "reservation" number for the computer, whenever it did get built.

David has been driving "Silver" with a "new" battery pack but the old computers these past three months. No IMA light... but likewise no "oomph" and about 15 mpg less on the average than "Papaya". He really wants the IMA repair complete (and the family MPG games to begin :!: )

Do you think a polite call to Honda America would be out of line? We have no complaints with our dealership, just want to know what is holding this up.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

<snip>

Do you think a polite call to Honda America would be out of line? We have no complaints with our dealership, just want to know what is holding this up.

A polite call won't help speed things up but if they open a case file (which may not, nor should it be necessary unless something is up at your delearships end) then you'll get a bit more attention.

AFAIK, and its only from the several posts here it is a "real" problem. Honda goofed somewhere in the chain of production and there is a backlog.

HTH!

 

[gobuchul74]

I doubt if Honda America will be able to help. I'm also waiting for the computer modules and Honda America has been nice enough to inform me about the expected delivery dates and subsiquent delays. First it was supposed to be arriving 1st week of Nov, now they said they'll be receiving a shipment of 100 units from Japan in Dec.

 

[The Citrus Smoothie]

AFAIK, and its only from the several posts here it is a "real" problem. Honda goofed somewhere in the chain of production and there is a backlog.

I suspect the IMA electronics production line / supplier has been super busy building packs for the new Civic hybrid (?).

 

[Insightful Trekker]

David has been driving "Silver" with a "new" battery pack but the old computers these past three months. No IMA light... but likewise no "oomph" and about 15 mpg less on the average than "Papaya". He really wants the IMA repair complete (and the family MPG games to begin :!: )
.

Sorry missed this in my eariler reply.

Hmm,

New IMA pack with the original MCM & BCM should equal like new performance. There are credible reports of _slightly_ reduced IMA battery Assist with the new controllers.

Sounds like hubby is looking for an "excuse" for his heavy left foot.

Or maybe something more serious. Unless you can identify something different in the commute I'd get the primary O2 sensor checked before potential resulting CAT damage :shock: $$$$

See:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... 9&start=60

HTH!