[Skimmer]

Since I just bought my Insight, I went down to my local Honda dealer to get the VIN checked out, to make sure it was up to speed on maintenance. I was shocked to see the dealer lot was FULL of Civic hybrids. They musta had 7 or 8 of them just sitting around, prepped and available to buy, in a rainbow of colors.

This shocked me, since we all hear so much about the overwhelming demand for the new Prius, and now the Ford Escape Hybrid and the new Lexus hybrid.

Are people not interested in the Civic hybrid for some reason?

 

[b1shmu63]

First of all it is invisible (looks the same and doesn't have a name). Second, it isn't new. Third, it doesn't have a big booster club. Fourth, it was written up years ago by lead foot luddites. Fifth, it doesn't have the gee wizz techno toy options of the Prius. Sixth, it is smaller than the Prius. Seventh, it hasn't been promoted by cute stars on late night TV. eigth, it isn't a hatch back. Ninth, it isn't being promoted by Honda. Tenth, people are waiting for the hybrid Accord.

The escape is American, an SUV, new, and in short supply.

I think most folk don't just want a car that is green and gas efficient, they want to make a bold statement. In the case of the upcoming Lexus and Accord they will be making a "powerful" statement. The shortage of Prii is a local phenomenon. When I checked a couple of months ago, I could get one in Canada on a couple of weeks notice at list price.

 

[Skimmer]

That's pretty much what I thought. People are buying the Prius because it's "different" and makes a statement, not necessarily for its technological and environmental assets alone. Which is fine. But it makes you wonder about all those people on waiting lists for the Prius. If I was one of them and didn't need a hatchback, I'd go down and buy a Civic hybrid tomorrow instead.

I suspect the Prius supply situation is different in Canada than in the U.S. From what I've heard, they are backordered for months pretty much everywhere in the U.S.

But I'd still be interested in hearing from more folks in the U.S. about their local dealer's supply of Civic Hybrids. Just wondering if what I see is the same nationwide or if my area is an oddball. :lol:

 

[hiram6]

That's exactly what I did! I was on the waiting list at five different Toyota dealers waiting for a Prius. Had two of them offer to sell me one at $5K OVER MSRP. Hadn't really heard much about the Civic Hybrid, so I started checking into them. Let's see here: available now, 7-8 thousand dollars cheaper, proven track record, Honda reliability, and to top it off, not Jetsons-look-at-me styling!! We didn't want a car that screamed "look at me I'm different" we just wanted to do the right thing in making a car purchase for my wife's commute in Atlanta traffic. We picked up an '04 HCH for less than 21K including leather. She's been driving it now for almost excatly a month, and is averaging 47.3 mpg.

The dealer we purchased from had one other HCH on his lot. Nearby dealers all seemed to have one or two available. I have noticed a few commercials on TV lately for the HCH, so maybe Honda will get the word out that there is no reason to wait for a Prius! :twisted:

Just wish there was a forum specifically for HCH owners, guess it's okay if I roam around here on insightcentral!! [/b]

 

[figgy]

Other than not being pod-like, I actually liked the Civic better than the Prius. Driving was more fun in the Civic.

There is more evil lurking in the Prius than you would think, however. It is my pet peeve that they put everything into the one screen in the Prius. It annoys the heck out of me. This seems to be the ultimate in stupidity, as you have to use the stupid menus to do anything and their display of fuel stats is lame.

The straw that broke my camel back was that in the stupid menu driven control panel the TOP LEVEL menu item was WHAT LANGUAGE you want!!!!!

As we all know, Honda's controls are separate. You can watch the assist and charge AND adjust the climate controls or the radio AT THE SAME TIME! What a concept! The driver can watch the fuel data coming in while the passenger selects songs! Wow! Multitasking. In the dumbest backwards step in the history of automobiles, in the Prius when the passenger starts fiddling with the menu mess you suddenly don't get any information as a driver because the passenger wants to watch the fan speed instead of mpg!

I suppose for all those people out there who test the Prius and then don't ever bother to test a Civic (or Insight) they'll never know about these issues. Maybe if Honda advertised the Civic, it would sell?

p.s. wrt driving:

I only like stick shifts, so maybe I am biased about the driving experience. I didn't try an automatic Civic.

 

[jsanford]

Lots of Civic Hybrids...

...on the road here; I easily see as many HCH as Priuses; usually one or two at the dealership. I think the Prius has an advantage in that it targets the guilt-ridden yuppie: SUVs are so great as they can haul a lot of stuff that sedans can't. Oh wait, here' the Prius, it's "midsize" not "compact" and has a liftback and folding seats, so you can haul stuff. Much more palpable to transition from an SUV.

My dealer had a couple of HCHs and I thought about test driving one, but as the seats don't fold down, ended up deciding it wasn't acceptible. I'd rather have a two-seater hatchback than a four-door four-seater with a small trunk opening.

 

[b1shmu63]

Welcome Hiram6. We have a few HCH drivers roaming these corridors. I'm sure very many of the issues are shared. I look forward to hearing from a few HAH! drivers in the future.

 

[bigtrouble77]

I see alot of HCHs in NJ. Actually, lately I've seen alot of hybrids in general, even a few insights.

My parents have a Prius II and I have one MAJOR beef with it... I love instantaneous mileage being available at all times. If I use the GPS I can't see it anymore. If I use the CD changer I can't see it anymore... The Climate control, same thing.

Honda's system of that all being on the dash is way better. Don't get me wrong, the LCD is super cool, but key things like mileage meters shouldn't be soley in there because it's annoying and VERY distracting (you have to take your eyes off the road).

-BT

 

[figgy]

That's exactly my point about the poor design of the Prius display and control systems.

About the abundance of HCHs on dealer lots... You see lots of regular Civics on Honda lots, but that is because the sell so many they keep tons around to keep up with the quantity that flows through. Maybe there are a lot of HCHs on lots because they expect the same high throughput and demand.

Are there stats about it?

 

[john1701a]

Rather than just promoting your vehicle and/or technology of choice, negative comments are now appearing. That's not a good sign. Things are changing. That game is not for me. I'm going to stick to emissions & efficiency/cost requirements. If a vehicle meets that criteria, it is welcomed. If not, I simply won't pay it any attention. No need to say something unpleasant.

But with this reply, I am entitled to a rebuttal...


> as you have to use the stupid menus to do anything

That is quite incorrect. The steering-wheel is loaded with buttons, all specially designed for no-sight operation. Though, you can look if you need to. And for the upper-package, you can also use the voice-recognition feature. Using the screen is not required for most routine operations.


> their display of fuel stats is lame

Vague. Provide details rather opinions... like the accuracy is a true 0.1 MPG.


> you have to take your eyes off the road

How is that any different from Honda? With Insight & HCH, you look down. With Prius, you look over. Of course, with Prius there isn't a steering-wheel in the way.

 

[bigtrouble77]

And for the upper-package, you can also use the voice-recognition feature. Using the screen is not required for most routine operations.

The voice activation kicks ***, but my parents never use it...why I'll never know.

How is that any different from Honda? With Insight & HCH, you look down. With Prius, you look over. Of course, with Prius there isn't a steering-wheel in the way.

This is a problem, my dad drives the car rarely because he gets very distracted with the LCD. You loose MUCH more vision of the road when you glance over to the LCD.

With Honda, on the other hand, it's in a more natural position. You do take you eyes off the road but the car in front of you is still in your peripheral vision. Plus, most people are accustomed to looking in that area at the speedometer so they have a bit of practice. I've driven both cars extensively and I have to say that it is very distracting that I always have to switch modes from GPS to the mileage screens.

It's just a difference of opinion. I don't think anyone is saying that the PriusII is a bad car. There are things that I love about it. I just think Honda's dash is better designed.

 

[Chris]

I just think Honda's dash is better designed.

I agree, the 2004 Prius's dashboard looks like my microwave clock. I think that it is just ugly. As for the Insight's, I really love the dashboard and think it's a triumph of good design.

 

[john1701a]

> You do take you eyes off the road but the car in front of you is still in your peripheral vision.

Why?

Just reverse that.

Use your peripheral vision instead to read the Multi-Display. With an instant MPG bar that large, you can clearly see it without taking your eyes off the road.

Also note that Saturn Ion, Toyota Echo, and all the Scion models have center displays... NOTHING behind the steering-wheel.

 

[bigtrouble77]

I'm not in the mood to argue. The only distraction that really bothered me was having to constantly change screens. If the instantaneous meter was below the MPH then I'd be perfectly happy. I was just trying to say I understand why other people have issues with it because my parents are one of them.

BTW, why is being behind the steering wheel an issue? The only time it's obstructed is during turns... I can't imagine why you'd take your eyes off the road to look at the display while turning.

 

[b1shmu63]

Relax John. These folk are just stating why they made their choice. Lots of folk don't like "Stupid" menus. I don't like them on digital cameras, but they are a nescessary evil. There are things we don't like about the Insight too. We even have a section on problems and troubleshooting. Not every site has the balls to do that! Obviously Insight Central does not try to gloss over problems. The good folk at Honda and Toyota value critics. Their feedback helps in the design of future cars. Listening to the critics is what makes these two car companies the leaders that they are.

Since you asked for more specifics about the fuel mileage stats, can you tell me if Prius has a LMPG indicator? Personally I would have prefered if the ampereage and temperature gauges on the Insight were 3 place digital readouts or analogue, but it probably would have messed up the esthetics.

 

[john1701a]

> can you tell me if Prius has a LMPG indicator?

It does not. And if you have high mileage on your vehicle, you'll understand why. The value almost never moves. Seeing a near constant number doesn't give you much.

The following 54 values are the calculated Lifetime MPG values of each fill up from 38,486 to 57,802 miles (my year #3 data):

44.9, 44.9, 44.9, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.1, 45.1, 45.1, 45.0, 45.1, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 44.9, 44.9, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.7, 44.8, 44.8, 44.7, 44.7, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.7, 44.7, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.9, 44.9, 44.9, 45.0, 45.0, 45.0, 45.1, 45.1, 45.1, 45.2, 45.2, 45.3

In other words, only a 0.6 MPG fluctuation over 19,316 miles. And as the mileage grows higher, the variation decreases. Even if you live in Minnesota (like me), where MPG takes a huge hit due to winter.

 

[john1701a]

Hmm. That got me thinking about my year #2 data (56 fill ups; 18,821 miles; from 19,665 to 38,486). You'd expect it to have a larger variance. And it does... but just barely, only 0.8 MPG.

Anywho, here's the numbers:

44.1, 44.2, 44.2, 44.3, 44.3, 44.3, 44.3, 44.3, 44.4, 44.4, 44.4, 44.5, 44.5, 44.5, 44.6, 44.5, 44.5, 44.4, 44.4, 44.4, 44.4, 44.3, 44.3, 44.3, 44.2, 44.2, 44.2, 44.1, 44.1, 44.2, 44.2, 44.2, 44.3, 44.3, 44.3, 44.3, 44.4, 44.4, 44.4, 44.4, 44.4, 44.5, 44.5, 44.5, 44.6, 44.5, 44.6, 44.6, 44.7, 44.7, 44.7, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.8, 44.9

Notice ever single one of them starts with a 44.

(And yes, I know an Insight can do better. But then again, so does my HSD Prius.)

 

[b1shmu63]

I see your point. I have had my Insight for two and a half years. This summer the mileage rose from 70.3 to 70. 9, a difference of less than one percent. Of course I'm ever hopeful that I will find a significant mod that will increase my mileage so dramatically that I'll see it move a few notches higher. I appreciate having it there for the same reason you include this statistic on your site. When talking to people about mileage and I tell them that I once had a trip over 90 MPG U.S. they think "Sure, downhill, in a huricane, on the highway, in the summer". State my LMPG and there is no arguement. The gauge also serves as a badge of honour for hypermilers and a good indication of how the car was driven for those buying a used Insight. Normally, trip mileage or tank mileage is more interesting though.

I appreciate your graphs, and visit your site periodically to check them out and read your journal. It would be nice to see a similar one for an Insight. I believe the Prius MPG variation is influenced more by battery temperature and the Insight MPG is influenced more by lean burn.

We are driving history. Some day books may be written about these early hybrids.

 

[figgy]

My comment on the lmpg issue is that even a small lmpg change on a car with high miles driven is very important. It represents a lot to move a small amount on a high miles car.

If you have the lmpg and you've driven 100,000 miles and you bring it up just 0.2 mpg you've done a big contribution to using less gas because that 0.2 mpg increase average is over the 100,000 miles plus. You can do the math.

The point is that sure it's a small change after a lot of miles are on the car but that does not mean that it isn't something to shoot for as you drive the car. Anything that helps people become more aware of driving better and using less gas is good. This helps.

If you have no lmpg it is easy to slip into a state of apathy where you 'just for this one trip' drive wastefully. If you always have that lmpg target to move up and up and up, then you never want to have a bad trip.

 

[figgy]

p.s. The second point is that lmpg can serve to indicate to buyers of used Insights (or other cars if they had this) something about how the car was driven. If someone says they treated the Insight like a baby and always drove sensibly and then you see they have 50,000 miles on it and a lmpg of 30 you know they are a big liar! What else are they lying about, you wonder?