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Discussion Starter #21
Just to make sure my position is understood in relation to this thread, I am not defeating the proprietory security systems or software controls. The work I am doing is purely to interogate the IMA and other onboard systems to gather live technical data/dtcs for my IMA/Gauge control projects. Access to this data is enshrined in EU Law and not allowed to be the sole right of the dealers. i.e. You can get you car repaired where you want in the EU and they must all be able to reset codes or do diagnostics etc
 

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Please add your names to this list if you want a bare pcb. Cost $55 inc P&P

Right Lane Cruiser x 1 (Prebuilt)
MadManMostafa x 1 (Prebuilt)
Eli x 5

I would be up for assembling the PCBs for people once I figure out how long it takes and the cost of parts.
 

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I also agree that it would be nice to mix and match the displayed parameters. It would also be nice to get more than four. A lot more. :)

Will the device only be able to log the displayed parameters? I would like to be able to monitor and log say 10 parameters at once, and am willing to be patient for such features as this project evolves. Being able to log 10+ parameters while only 4 are displayed might be acceptable though?

It's very early in it's development - I almost wonder if we should allow a prototype design to be designed, built and used for a while before you settle on a mass production design?

I think a 20x4 LCD at minimum would be much more suitable for this device. $100 for a device this powerful is an absolute steal when something like the Scangauge is $160-180.... I'm not concerned about spending a little more on components.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Goods points Eli the lcd can be swapped at will already for a 20x4 device, but I'm also concious of those who have a 16x2 serial lcd from the BCM gauge.

Breadboard & software development is taking place using the 12F683 and a 16x2 lcd.
I have a 20x4 to hand ready for when I get to that stage. Expanding the stuff on screen for easier readability is simple when we move to the bigger pic, at the moment it's the processing the data which I'm concentrating on.

I'm going to start sending commands to the MCM today to see what happens.
I think i have the IMA BATTERY and MPI fan controls worked out :)

Logging of the parameters on display is very easy and logging more will come later, but anything we get over the bus can be squirted out of the serial to usb lead as now.

I assume Eli you would be up for being a prototype tester? With early access to the code :)

Edit

Here are two revised schematics.

1) Is the 12F683 version I'm using on the breadboard for code/hardware development. Eli if you want to build this you can assist. :)
www.solarvan.co.uk/obdii/OBDIIGauge.jpg

2) Is the 16F1825 version for the proposed commercial release version.
www.solarvan.co.uk/obdii/ODBIIGauge16F1825.jpg

Video showing a bit more progress. IMA Fan Control. :)

 

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Absolutely. :)

It would kinda be nice to have even more than ten parameters to be honest. I think of this as an "All in one" device. Like an "Insight Gauge". If you pick four ECM parameters that the Scangauge can display plus the five BCM parameters that the BCM Gauge displays that's already 9, and off the top of my head it would be nice to see Knock Retard, Air/Fuel Ratio, ELM(total car amp draw), and probably others... :) I know this is probably all easier said than done...

Have you ever thought about using something like this? Please forgive me if this is ridiculous as I have no idea what is involved with implementing such a thing compared to the simple character LCDs, but you could do some pretty amazing things with it I bet.

132x132 pix Serial Color Graphic LCD SPI PIC ARM AVR | eBay
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Have you ever thought about using something like this? Please forgive me if this is ridiculous as I have no idea what is involved with implementing such a thing compared to the simple character LCDs, but you could do some pretty amazing things with it I bet.

132x132 pix Serial Color Graphic LCD SPI PIC ARM AVR | eBay
I have looked at those but have not the time or inclination to do anything with one. Someone else can have a go.

I don't think the elm value is available from the ECM, as the sofware evolves things will get added, don't expect too much too soon.

As you add more parameters to your monitored list the refresh rate will fall accordingly.
eg with ten parameters we might be able to refresh at 1hz, with 20 at 2hz, and with 5 at 0.5hz etc etc.
 

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It would kinda be nice to have even more than ten parameters to be honest.
I haven't seen any problems with my Insight and my DashDynoSPD keeping up with 16 parameters ... so the car side of it seems to be able to handle at least that many ... maybe more ( who knows )?

How much expense in time and money it would cost to implement 10 parameters instead of 5 ... or 15 instead of 10 etc ... might make it a deal breaker to go past a certain number... but for now this is still the early stages.

plus what Peter said about the more you monitor the slower the refresh rate makes sense too.

I think of this as an "All in one" device. Like an "Insight Gauge".
I agree ... Although there is still a lot of work to do ... I see a great potential in this device to surpass many of the limitations of other devices on the market... especially for us Insight users :)
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I haven't seen any problems with my Insight and my DashDynoSPD keeping up with 16 parameters ... so the car side of it seems to be able to handle at least that many ... maybe more ( who knows )?
Your dash dyno will only be talking to the standard OBDII side of the car though.
What refresh rate is it giving any way of telling?

Ironically we may be able to display mixed OBDII & IMA data quicker, as when the OBDII side is busy we can nip over to the IMA side and get some data on that bus and vice versa. :)
 

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The ELM is in the PGM-FI screen. :) I guess it's called ELD.

The car/HDS can log up to 10 different parameters in "high speed" mode. I think that's where my basic ten number came from.

32MHz is a very fast processor. It shouldn't have any trouble keeping up with what the car can spit out. I think even the 8MHz pic should be able to, but then again I'm not a programmer. I'm having trouble understanding why for example in the case of the BCM Gauge the 8MHz pic takes 1.6 million clock cycles for each update if it's at 5Hz? Is that normal?
 

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Eli wrote:

Please add your names to this list if you want a bare pcb. Cost $55 inc P&P

Right Lane Cruiser x 1 (Prebuilt)
MadManMostafa x 1 (Prebuilt)
Eli x 5
Calpod X 1 (prebuilt) X 1 bare
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
32MHz is a very fast processor. It shouldn't have any trouble keeping up with what the car can spit out. I think even the 8MHz pic should be able to, but then again I'm not a programmer. I'm having trouble understanding why for example in the case of the BCM Gauge the 8MHz pic takes 1.6 million clock cycles for each update if it's at 5Hz? Is that normal?
Remember I'm no programmer either or i would be doing this in assembly and using more interrupt driven processess. The 12F683 does not have a hardware USART to recieve the data so sits around quite a lot of the time wating for info to appear on the BATTSCI bus. We have no control over BATTSCI so have to wait about quite a lot for that as well. Processing the data, caluclating Ah & driving the lcd at 9600 baud take quite a lot of time. The pic level instructions per second on an 8mhz pic is actually 2 million. Each pbpro level instruction takes quite a few pic level instructions.

I think we will be able to handle and log a mixed selection of 10 parameters a second on the OBDIIC&C gauge that's my target. Anything else will be icing on the cake.

Remember the PLX-DAQ software that gets the data into excel can only handle ~27 data fields in one go, we used at least 10 or more of those already for the BCMGAUGE DATA.

All this is at least six months away though. I have now ordered a couple of the 16F1825 chips I will breadboard one when it arrives. If there are no hardware issues i will get the pcb produced fairly quickly.

Talking about the pcb it has the switch built onto it so we need to think about the layout of it and how it would be mounted in the car. Any ideas. Bear in mind I'm thinking of using a sparkfun 20x4 serial lcd as the standard display. :? The switch could be mounted on the reverse of the pcb and could be connected with short wires from the pcb if necessary to give a bit more flexibility. Thoughts?


OK How about this for an enhanced serial display for this long term project. Includes buttons and status leds :)



http://www.matrixorbital.com/Intelligent-Display-Character-LCDs/c39_3/p219/LK204-7T-1U-YG/product_info.html?CDpath=1

http://www.matrixorbital.com/p1144/B19264-BK-(Black)/product_info.html

Yes it's more expensive than the sparkfun but a lot faster with more features! Might fit into a din slot?

Probably knocks $5.00 off the pcb and parts list price for the OBDIIC&C itself as well.
Anyway I have bought one to play with. :)
 

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Theres are some seriously impressive displays on that site! Nice Bezel aswell.

I think this gauge feature content demands more display area but then where do you draw the line with the cost and information at hand.



I think thats for a desktop PC so far too detailed for your eyes to read it whilst driving.

Nice Simpson reference: :D




Personally I think the switch remote mounted will offer far more flexibility. These screens look like the narrower PCB also will help with the space needed and fit probably fit just infront of the cupholders.

Sterling work Peter on getting the real work on this done though. :cool:
 

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Your dash dyno will only be talking to the standard OBDII side of the car though.
What refresh rate is it giving any way of telling?

Ironically we may be able to display mixed OBDII & IMA data quicker, as when the OBDII side is busy we can nip over to the IMA side and get some data on that bus and vice versa. :)
I have not had time yet to personally verify all the screens and modes yet ... but bellow is the mix of what I was told the specs are and what I have seen myself so far from the data recorded.

One of the reasons I got the DashDyno instead of other OBDII devices was it also allows for more flexibility with external analogue and digital inputs that are not from OBDII ( they can be whatever sensors I want to add ) , they can be displayed to the screen and/or logged to the built in up to 2GB compatible SD card reader/writer ( I'm only using a 1 GB I thought would be more than enough ) ... or passed through to a PC via the USB interface.

One of my original ideas was to use three of the analogue senor inputs to input a scaled signal of the IMA batteries Voltage , Current , and Temperature ... just haven't got that far with it yet... never enough time.

Unfortunately there are some calibration issues with the DashDyno that may not be readily resolvable ... The biggest issue might be it's fuel use rate measurement does not take into account fuel cut conditions any time the engine also has non-Zero RPMs ... doesn't apply to Auto-Stop ... but does miscount amount of grams of fuel used during braking , and the occasional EV-Mode ... It reads the O2 sensors , but I have not yet determined how the raw sensor output relates to specific A/F ratios ...

I have no doubt will be other issues as well... and thus one of the beauties of a device like the one being developed here is it is purpose built around the Insight... and likely to not share some of the DashDyno's fails. :)

As for the DashDyno's refresh rate ... it depends:
  • In Data Logger Mode up to a total of 16 parameters can be selected... combination of OBDII signals , 4 Analogue Inputs , 1 Digital Input , 1 Serial Port
    • The 4 Analogue Inputs and 1 Digital Input are each supposed to sample at up to 10 times per second ... supposed to not be effected by the number of ports used... so all 5 should still be able to be had at up to 10 times per second.
    • I can get 1 GPS updates from multiple satellite signals ... every second through the Serial port input , but I don't know if that is the GPS pucks limitation or the DashDyno's ... or that it spends time decoding the signals from multiple satellites before putting out the GPS data to me .... or how it will work with other serial devices.
    • It lists the OBDII data refresh rate as being dependent on the number of OBDII parameters ... exactly as you already posted , faster with fewer slower with more ... and they also say it is significantly faster with CAN based vehicles than non-CAN based vehicles... supposedly the DashDyno maxes out under the best conditions and a CAN based vehicle of a 20 sample per second OBDII refresh rate.
      • With my non-CAN 2000 Insight using all 16 parameters from OBDII line only ... I am seeing a data recording refresh rate of about ~1.351 seconds ... or ~0.0844375 seconds average for each of the 16 OBDII Parameters.
      • When I've set it to only do 1 OBDII Parameter in my Non-CAN 2000 Insight I've got a refresh rate of ~0.136 seconds per sample ( ~7.35 samples per second )
  • When the DashDyno is in Oscilloscope Mode it is supposed to be able to do up to 2 of the Analogue Inputs can be selected ... in this mode it supposedly records those 2 inputs at up to a 1ms refresh rate ... or 1,000 times per second... in bursts of 256 samples of both ... then it pauses, as it writes this data to the SD card ... then repeats another 256 samples of the 2 inputs at 1ms rate ... with a fast enough SD card it is supposed to averaging out to a ~200hz sample rate ( 200 times per second getting both inputs ).
I originally did the upgrade from the CarChip to the DashDyno several months ago ... but Have not had enough time yet to implement all the things I had hoped to originally ... and as I have started to use the DashDyno some issues like those listed above have come up... oh well ... 20/20 hind sight ... Although there is still a lot of work to do , I am very much looking forward to the progress being made here ... and I expect this device will not share some of the DashDyno's limitations / issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Personally I think the switch remote mounted will offer far more flexibility. These screens look like the narrower PCB also will help with the space needed and fit probably fit just infront of the cupholders.
The switch on this lcd works in a completely different way to the one i use at present and will likely be much more reliable/flexible and it also commuicates back to the pcb via serial comms at the speed we choose. Anyway food for thought :?
 

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Great project Guys.
May I suggest that you consider an 18F series Pic for this project.
In quantity, you are only talking $3-4, and they can run at 40 MHZ and 10 MIPS, They have hardware USART, and multiple A/D, PWM, and and have a lot of on board memory both for the program and flash.
Why limit your self with the low pin count processors which are really not that much cheaper in the big picture?
Keep up the great work.
 
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Can we have just a simple lean burn light? Just something that triggers a light when the second cat reads 0? Just a tiny yellow LED or something
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Can we have just a simple lean burn light? Just something that triggers a light when the second cat reads 0? Just a tiny yellow LED or something
Have you looked at the proposed schematic?

Mike the proposed 16F1825 a very new pic runs at 32mhz on the int osc, has hardware usart pwm etc etc and 8k words of flash and 1024 bytes RAM. It cost's around $1.50

I'm only using a 12F683 for breadboard/development work and data checking.
 

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Peter added a Lean Burn Indicator LED into his revised commercial schematic. :)

How about a Red/Green/Yellow LED? Red for rich, Yellow for stoichiometric and Green for lean burn? :D

I wholeheartedly agree with Mike regarding the more robust PIC. I realize that's easier said than done from where we stand, but I really think it's pertinent. Who knows what direction this may go with enough time? I think the temptation to go with the bare minimum for what seems to be needed now should be avoided.

It seems the PIC used in the BCM Gauge even held it back a bit, and I see this as a way more complex and potentially integrated project. I think this project should definitely be allowed room to grow. :) And again, I'm not worried about the timeframe for development of this. It's indeed exciting, but if it takes 6 months to a year to put out an exceptionally robust project, I think that's worth it.

Edit: Just saw your post Peter, the PIC sounds excellent. :) I wasn't aware of its specs.
 

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Android App?

Are we headed in the direction taken by Attilla Vass with his 2004 Prius application but eventually using one of the emerging tablets as a processor/display?
 

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Discussion Starter #40 (Edited)
Are we headed in the direction taken by Attilla Vass with his 2004 Prius application but eventually using one of the emerging tablets as a processor/display?
I won't be using a tablet etc i prefer a more direct approach with dedicated hardware. Someone is more than welcome to develop something with a tablet if they wish. I do agree though an android app might be nice later but as i know nothing about Android or programming on one I will leave that to someone else. The device will have a serial data output stream which could be fed to an add on bluetooth or wifi txd. Then someone clever with android can rxd that data and do a nice dispay.

The proposed lcd/button/led display module I mentioned a few posts below has three tri/colour led's :)

If we go to a larger more capable PIC with lots of pins, I will probably add IMAC&C functionality to it, which will mean I won't sell it outside of Europe. I don't want to develop two versions of the software/hardware, one with and one without IMAC&C.

What extra capabilities/functions are people thinking about/may be missing other than MIMA?

We can give it the capability to squirt out data IMA/OBD data for use by MIMA or IMAC&C as reqd.
 
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