[bogturtlewoman]

Bogturtlewoman here again with another question. I think I might be at the forefront of those wearing out their Insights. Mine is a silver 2000 model, now at 115,338 miles. After the last oil change (I must admit that all have been done by the dealer in Bristol, TN,) a bad leak developed, having never leaked at all. Today I took it in and was told the plug in the oil pan has nearly stripped the threads and is leaking. I suspect this means that the last oil change the mechanic stripped the threads. The solution: replace the oil pan, about $450. This sounds a bit extreme!. I asked if the hole could not be rethreaded and use a bigger plug. This was met with warnings of the plug falling out as I zoom down the interstate. Any advice will be much appreciated.

Lynn Eastin

 

[Willie Williford]

stripped

The only way the threads will get stripped, is because of over tightening.
8) John :idea: will probably direct you to the links. (Been discussed and cussed a lot)

A "heli coil" installed with "lock tite" should solve your problem. At least worth a try before buying a new pan. Pans from salvage yards would probably go for around $150.00. (Labor charge= 1.5 hr. Max)

If you can prove that there was NO oil leak before the oil was changed, that might be in your favor with the Honda rep.

Willie

 

[HafNHaf]

they did all the oil changes? they owe you a new oil pan. period!!! they stripped it, they buy it!!! dont back down. they have made a bunch of money on something you could have done yourself. they owe you.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

"Willie" so I'm in quotes now :?:
[edit] So your gonna play the edit game Willie :?: [end]


IMO "They" broke it, they should fix it. Stick to your guns. But only shoot if absolutely necessairy.

HTH!

 

[bogturtlewoman]

correction

The mileage on my car is 113,338, not as typed in the previous message-or something close to that anyway.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Only a trivial point Lynn. And self editing (all members can when logged in) your own post would be the preferred method for such.

Since you already know the drill I won't spent too much time further explaining. However, this particular situation is somewhat different in that you dealing with the _dealerships_ liability. First talk to the Service manager, then the General Manager if necessary. Finally Honda customer relations then the BBB (requires in writing).

The "damage" (in theory) could have been done at almost any point. Or gradually on each oil change. The magnesium oil pan is different and somewhat more sensitive to this type of problem. Tightening the drain plug _requires_ GREAT care in an Insight. But there's no reason that it shouldn't last the life of the car.

PLEASE let us know how your problem progresses. (in this thread)

HTH!

 

[Rick]

Unfortunately your not the first with a stripped oil pan, especially not the first who's had theirs get stripped at a dealership. I will just say this, I have not heard of anyone who has done their own oil changes and used a torque wrench have their oil pan get stripped out.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

IIRC Aaron Cake did.

However, he did _not_ replace the crush washer on every change. Another never ending argument (replace or not to replace every time and that it shouldn't make a difference when properly torqued). And I'd tend to agree that it shouldn't make any difference (when properly torqued).

But the proof is in the pudding.

IMO Honda's spec it too tight. Personally I shoot for 3-6 ft/lb lighter. And with my chosen 5K interval I've done 14 OC's. So far so good.

All thread insert repairs that I am familiar of do not have the same _durability_ as virgin metal. In locations that are frequently tightened & loosened (the engine drain plug) they rarely last 25% of the original. Make them _replace_ the pan with a _new_ part. :!:

HTH!

 

[Willie Williford]

stripped oil pan

I have done ALL my oil changes since 2001. (Except the first one) No torque wrench involved. New crush washer every time.

After 23 filter and oil changes, everything is still proper, no leak.
Tightening the drain plug is a "feel" that you develop after a while.

Maybe it's my "elder age" and I just don't have the strength to over tighten it............Darn peanut butter jars!
Willie

 

[joecvt]

I ordered an oil drain valve from Fumoto [part nbr Honda F106(1)]
from http://www.fumotovalve.com I now have over 50,000
miles with 9 oil changes with no leaking...never have to worry about
the threads again once this thing is installed. Website says the Insight
requires and adapter but I did not need one. The adapter may be just
longer threads...

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner

 

[SteveChicagoSC]

Looks like it requires an adapter as well.

http://www.fumotovalve.com/merchant.cfm?id=311&step=2

"Insight requires adapter ADP106 to install the valve."

 

[joecvt]

I mentioned earlier that the website says the Insight requires the adapter
but I looked up my order and it looks like I did not order one...Back then
they did not have Insight info on the website. If you look at these links:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/warehows/_uimages/Fumoto02.jpg
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/warehows/_uimages/Fumoto06.jpg

These are not my pictures of my car...They were from a search in this
forum on the Fumoto valve. It shows the difference in threads between
the original bolt, the valve and the adapter. The adapter was only made
to clear the small bolt above the plug (Instead of longer threads that I
originally thought - In fact the length of the threads are shorter on the
adapter). You can take the small bolt off first, then put the valve in,
then put the small bolt back in as long as valve handle is out of the way.

I'm due for another oil change soon so I will check to make sure and
report back but my email shows the order and payment indicating only
the valve being purchased and the pictures show me it is possible to
do it without the valve (assuming that tightening does not put the lever
in the wrong spot for the small bolt insertion.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner

 

[Aaron Cake]

The crush washer makes no difference for torque specs. 25 (or was it 28?) ft-LBS is the same value regardless of whether the washer has been replaced or not. It still represents the same amount of stress on the bolt and threads. It may not seal as well (no difference in my considerable experience working on all types of vehicles) unless annealed. However if you have to start cranking down on the bolt to get a seal with an old washer, then the issues start...

I suspect that my threads stripped (on my 2nd DIY oil change on the Insight) due to the fact that the dealer overtightened the bolt in the past. The first time I changed the oil after purchasing the car it took a breaker bar to loosen the bolt. The threads were probably gone at that point and the final straw was removal and reinsertion of the bolt during that first oil change.

I had the car towed to the dealer because I had to get to work and could not spend the day fixing it myself. I had also assumed that they would pay for replacement of the oil pan. That of course didn't happen (Honda dealers never make mistakes, so it couldn't have been their fault...right...) but they DID end up just using a Heli-Coil to repair the pan (and charging me $150 to do it!). So pan replacement is not necessary unless it's really screwed.

At this point, I do not follow Honda's torque recommendation. I now torque the bolt to 15 ft-LBS, use a soft copper crush washer and use Teflon tape on the bolt threads. This summer I have a series of reliability mods I am doing to the Insight at which point the drain plug will no longer be relevant.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

This summer I have a series of reliability mods I am doing to the Insight at which point the drain plug will no longer be relevant.

Sounds like some interesting reading. I hope you'll share them here :!:

Sincerely,

 

[SeanW]

The adapter was only made
to clear the small bolt above the plug (Instead of longer threads that I
originally thought - In fact the length of the threads are shorter on the
adapter).

That is exactly right! Those are the pics I took when I installed it on my car in Sept. 2003 (40,000 miles and 6 changes ago). The valve has never leaked, dripped, or given me any problems of any kind. In fact, I have used them on five different cars and all have been trouble free.

I seem to recall someone else that installed the Fumoto valve on an Insight and they removed that bolt and the plate altogether. In that case I don't remember if an adapter was used or not.

 

[Valiant118]

HAfNHaf is absolutely right, if the dealer in Bristol did all the oil changes, then they owe you a repair for free. The drain plug will not strip out if you torque to Hionda's 25 ft lb spec and replace the drain plug washer every time.

Also, the oil drain plug threads into an adapter on the oil pan that has a separate bolt that holds it in. I'm fairly sure you can replace this part without having to replace the entire oil pan.

Oh, and 115k is no wher near the point at which your Insight should be falling aprat. Many of these are running strong well past 200k, even on the original IMA motors & packs.

 

[Valiant118]

I followed up on my previous post and, indeed, you do not have to replace the oil pan. Ther is a Honda part number 210114 ("Oil Drain Base") that the drain plug thread into. The "drain base" attaches to the oil pan with one screw and is sealed by an o-ring, part # 11632. Here's the link to Majestic Honda's parts list for the engine block and oil pan asembly:

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/aut ... CK-OIL+PAN

BTW, total cost for the oil drain base and o-ring appears to be around $14!

 

[joecvt]

When I installed the Fumoto valve, I removed that piece of metal with
the one bolt....Not sure what it does but from what I remember, it does
not have any threads for the drain plug (bolt)...My guess as to why it is
there is to separate the plug washer from the Magnesium pan for
different metal contact reasons or a smooth mating surface (or both).

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner

 

[Insightful Trekker]

I followed up on my previous post and, indeed, you do not have to replace the oil pan. Ther is a Honda part number 210114 ("Oil Drain Base") that the drain plug thread into.

Close but no "prize". The part you reference is called a "plate" Honda Factory S.M. pg 8-3 and is not threaded (look closer during your next OC ). It reduces any galvanic corrosion and chaffing that would occur between the aluminum washer and magnesium pan. The threads are in the pan (100% magnesium). But it may "save" enough threads (or undamaged metal available to accept threads) such that one of the drain plug replacement valves already discussed would fix the problem. With a valve I don't see any further value for the plate. Simply remove it to gain a few more precious millimeters of thread.

HTH!

 

[fklentz]

The firt oil change I had done after I bought my used 2000 insight I found that drain plug was hosed up. The previous owner had installed an oversized self tapping replacement. Well that was working for a while but I took it to sears for a quick change and the service guy tore out what was left AND stripped out the threads that hold the "Plate" on.

Well here's what I did, I bought online a " Helicoil" brand sav-a-thread spark plug M14X1.25 (part number 5334-14) port repair kit. The kit has a special tap that will grab onto the old stripped threads and pull thru a cutter and tap that will cut new threads for an insert that comes with the kit. I also replaced the drain plug with a new one from autozone.

The repair went pretty quick but I was doing some major pucker factor while cutting those threads. The kit has 3 different inserts, I used the middle length one. I coated the outside of the insert with HI temp rtv as recomended in the kit and it threaded in pretty easily. After threading in the insert the kit comes with a special drift that is used to expand the lip of the insert to make it hold.

After cutting the threads I poured a QT of fresh oil thru to flush the debris out as best as I could. I also left the little plate off as I see no reason for it to be there anymore and I didn't have the tap to re-thread it. I'm thinking on installing a Fram Sure-drain so as not needing to mess with the plug anymore. I drive around 3K miles a month so I do a lot of oil changes and plan on doing them myself from now on.