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Discussion Starter #1
Saw this on the way back to London from Indianapolis last week. It's either one very confused Prius driver, or hopefully, the owner works in the field of fuel cells. Either way, I hate this kind of thing. The public is confused enough about hybrids to begin with, and throwing something like this out there just serves to further blur the lines.

 

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Keep in mind that a handful of Prius have already been converted to be powered by fuel-cell stacks, rather than a gas engine. You may have actually spotted one of those rare Prius.

Also note that 2 contracts have recently been awarded to convert 35 Prius to run their combustion engine using hydrogen instead of gas.

Several Prius have also had secondary battery-packs added, to further boost the electric abilities.

In short, it's already getting hard to tell what the heck it is that you encounter on the road.
 

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speaking of prius drivers and potential confusion ( woo!, i'm on topic ), my supervisor at work is getting an '04 prius.

apparently his salesman has filled my supervisor's head with some interesting data.... :/

now my supervisor is trying to tell me that the insight and the civic hybrid are based on the toyota prius platform. after i tried to suggest that he's a loon, as the civic is a 1.0l 3cyl and the prius is a 1.5l 4cyl, he clarified his statement to say that the civic's ( and i believe he implied the insight's ) electrical-drive motor is a toyota component.

he says "yeah, if you look at it it's got toyota stamped right on it!".

as i do not *yet* have my insight ( sigh... next week maybe? ), are there any of you, especially those with digicams, who're capable of dis-/prooving this? i need _concrete_ visual data or manufacturer's specs -- my supervisor would not be convincable ( eg - that the civic/insight aren't "toyotas" ) without _proof_; simple "no it's not, i looked at it" stuff wouldn't compel him to concede.

i call on fellow insight owners to please enlighten me if in fact they are toyota components in there, or if not, to help squelch out an injustice of misinformation.

i've checked the IMA Motor links on the knowledge base on insightcentral.net, and looked at the photo of the stuff in the back, but nothing seemed to say anything about whether or not there're toyota or prius thingers in there.

i'm betting 10:1 his saleman was just a dufus and had an enticing spiel. one would have to have quite an enticing spiel to convince someone to drop $20k on that otherwise silly looking cottonball poofbutt-mobile; but since i don't know for _certain_, i could be wrong. mir hilfen bitte!
 

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I went to a Toyota dealership near me when I was helping my parents look for a Prius.

I met with their self proclaimed "Prius Expert'. Not knowing I drove up in my insight he said don't even bother with the hondas as they are not even true hybrids. He then informed me that the mileage ratings for the insight are fabricated.

Finally, when I looked at the quote and saw it was almost 5k over MSRP he simply said, "Look, this is a Prius your buying here." He also informed me i'd never find an 04 package 9 Prius without waiting months or paying well over MSRVP. My Parents drove home in one 2 weeks later from another dealership(and actually paid a little under MSRP).

Car Salesmen will say ANYTHING to get a sale.
 

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Hello jrrs,

At first: tell your supervisor that he should not buy a car where he is planning to !!! That salesman has no idea of opponent cars, what he should know !!! Every salesman/women has instruction books where carmodels are explained which he has on sale (if he is working at a official Toyota dealer), and the in and outs of all rival cars, performance and most off all, the advantages of the new car he is going to sell, compared to other rival cars!!! Just ask the salesman where he has that information from :roll:

How nice, this is an 144 Volt vs 500 Volt thing.

:lol: :lol: He is a good salesman though............ :wink:
 

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bigtrouble77 said:
......don't even bother with the hondas as they are not even true hybrids.
I don't want to push any buttons here, but I think he is a little bit right on this one, the Prius is for me more hybrid cause it can drive solely 100 % electric, while the Honda has only the "assist". But after all I think that the idea of Honda is more clever because you (still) can't drive 800 miles on batteries, and carrying all that weight during highway traffic is worthless in my opinion. Just electrical assist during acceleration is enough.
So for me it is 1-0 for Honda :wink:
 

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jrrs:
The IMA-technology is Honda's own. As Toyota has a completely DIFFERENT hybrid-system I can easily bet that there is no "Toyota"-Logo on them parts :wink:

Honda ISN'T like Ford, who simply go out and BUY the technology (SUV-Hybrid) just because they can't be bothered to do engineering-work of their own :roll:
 

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see, this is what i mean.

i am our side here, believe me, but a forum thread full of responses of "bah, that guy's wrong screw him" is not useful as *proof*. i need _concrete evidential proof_ that it the idea that the insight _and_ civic hybrid do not use the toyota electrical engine jobby before i can even broach the subject again.

if there're no photos available which clearly distinguish the lack of toyota parts or systems or so forth within the insight's components among any one's private stash of pictures/pdfs, might there be some links i could follow?

human conjecture will yield absolutely no headway with this man, in despite of he and i having had *several* contradictory opinions and having discussions about them and me being able to _prove_ myself to be utterly correct on the _clear majority_ of instances ( he's been right *once* so far, from among these buttings-of-heads ), he gives me *no* credit whatsoever and still believes that if he and i have differing takes on a subject, his is right and mine therefore must not be right.

it's frustrating as all hell, but he's a very decent guy and a good superior; it's just situations like these where until i can come down on him with the undeniable hand of god, i'm wrong...

i do not believe for an instant that my supervisor, or this salesman i'm supposing, are even 1% correct, do not get me wrong; but i have no citable facts to deliver. by citable, i mean items with references, etc -- same type of substantiation one needs to provide when one writes a term paper, not just the webforum text written by one who may in fact truly know.

but thanks for the cheer so far :)

i'll see if i can come up with anything...
 

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windmill said:
But after all I think that the idea of Honda is more clever because you (still) can't drive 800 miles on batteries, and carrying all that weight during highway traffic is worthless in my opinion. Just electrical assist during acceleration is enough.
So for me it is 1-0 for Honda :wink:
I think this arguement is remeniscent to some of the old game systems claiming they were 16 bit, but infact used 2 8bit processors to accomplish the same thing.

I told the guy all I care about is the end result. Honda's system works really well so whether it's true to what a hybrid is supposed to be (in the eyes of some people) is irrelevant.

What scares me about the Prius' design is that it seems to use the battery waaaay more. I have a feeling their batteries are going to have to be replaced much sooner as a result- unless their battery packs can handle the heavy load better. I only go through 3 battery bars at the most on my daily usage. Driving similarly, I was going well over %50 usage on my parent's prius. I've gotten no indication that my battery has recalibrated yet either.
 

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Hell will freeze over before Honda and Toyota ever get together on any engineering project. The two companies have been mortal enemies since Toyota tried to prevent Honda from building their first car by promoting a Japanese law that prevented additional car companies from entering the market. Honda had only 6 months to develop and begin to sell their first vehicle. They succeeded, and have enjoyed the fastest growth rate of any Japanese company since WWII.

Tell your boss that the burden of proof is his. Tell him that several of your friends disagree and get him to show you the sticker. Otherwise take my advice and let him win this. Nice as he is, no one wants to be proved wrong and for what it is worth you might win a few arguments and loose your job.
 

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jrrs said:
now my supervisor is trying to tell me that the insight and the civic hybrid are based on the toyota prius platform. after i tried to suggest that he's a loon, as the civic is a 1.0l 3cyl and the prius is a 1.5l 4cyl, he clarified his statement to say that the civic's ( and i believe he implied the insight's ) electrical-drive motor is a toyota component.

Why not just inform him that the Insight has been around since 1999, 3 or 4 years before the Prius. If it's based on the Prius, why did it take Toyota 4 years longer to get their hybrid on the market?
 

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Hi,

This salesman can really sell a freezer to esquimos. Wish he was working at the co. I was working for. Was 23 emploies last december, now they are 5. I still have my Insight.
 

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bigtrouble77 said:
I think this arguement is remeniscent to some of the old game systems claiming they were 16 bit, but infact used 2 8bit processors to accomplish the same thing.
the turbografx-16/PCEngine had the best shooters ever, unsurpassed to this day. raiden and gunhead. mmm

bfivelover said:
Why not just inform him that the Insight has been around since 1999, 3 or 4 years before the Prius. If it's based on the Prius, why did it take Toyota 4 years longer to get their hybrid on the market?
i will probably indeed use that; but still.. i am going to need hard cold documented disproof of his belief before i can bring it up <G>

b1shmu63 said:
Tell your boss that the burden of proof is his. Tell him that several of your friends disagree and get him to show you the sticker. Otherwise take my advice and let him win this. Nice as he is, no one wants to be proved wrong and for what it is worth you might win a few arguments and loose your job.
oh, nono; it's nothing like that. we have an excellent relationship at work -- it's just that he's singularly a skosh stubborn when it comes to differing takes on reality.
 

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> What scares me about the Prius' design is that it seems to use the battery waaaay more.

In reality, the battery-pack doesn't get used anywhere near as often as many think. Most of the electricity actually comes from the second motor, generated on-the-fly.


> I have a feeling their batteries are going to have to be replaced much sooner as a result- unless their battery packs can handle the heavy load better.

Interesting you should mention that. Prius owners actually have that identical worry about IMA, since it allows the charge-level to drop much lower than HSD does.


I really like the fact that there are two entirely different types of hybrid designs available. It clearly proves that hybrids offer quite a bit more potential that people initially believed.

And yes, I feel HSD is superior on several levels. But all it would take is a breakthru in battery or motor technology to change the playing field, allowing IMA to be offered at a more competitive price.
 

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> Why not just inform him that the Insight has been around since 1999, 3 or 4 years before the Prius.

Sales of Prius began in 1997, in Japan. The upgrade to that model was the first offered here in the United States, back in 2000. A rather significant upgrade to that became available in 2003. So by the the fall of 2004, when the seventh model year concludes, there will be a total of 250,000 Prius on roads worldwide.

And that is actually the very reason IMA should not be overlooked as a viable hybrid offering. It is simply behind a generation, that's all. Honda will come up with some clever way of making it competitive. Patience, grasshopper.
 

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[quote="bigtrouble77I think this arguement is remeniscent to some of the old game systems claiming they were 16 bit, but infact used 2 8bit processors to accomplish the same thing.[/quote]

Waitaminute. There's 8 bit processors? But.. you could only reference 255 bytes of memory. That's like.. 100 instructions including operands. That's, like.. not even enough to run a driver for a controller. Are you sure about this?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I doubt that this is actually a fuel cell Prius. There's a stock looking exhaust pipe in the picture, and small glimpses of the interior showed nothing out of the ordinary...Could be wrong though.

As for the Insight using Toyota components...That's just laughable. I'd love to post pictures of the motor, but it is integrated into the gas engine and there's no way to show the internal components (or motor casing, since it's part of the crankcase) without disassembly.

In regards to what is a true "hybrid" and what isn't, the simple fact is that neither the Honda or Toyota is actually a hybrid. Since they only have one fuel source (gasoline), and cannot be grid-recharged, they are not hybrids. At most, they are "mild hybrids".
 

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> and cannot be grid-recharged

Do we really want to nit-pick?

If so, then I can point out that Prius can in fact be grid-recharged. The equipment is rather expensive though. So only a handful of people ever get access to it. The reason for the high cost is that the charger connects to both the battery-pack and the on-board computer. Otherwise, the car wouldn't understand where all the extra electricity came from... which would trigger a recal. I could also point out that additional modules can be added to the system to extend the electric abilities.

So... I prefer to focus on the actual benefit of each hybrid instead. For Insight, that means stellar MPG. For Prius, that means PZEV emissions with pretty darn good MPG.
 

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john1701a said:
And that is actually the very reason IMA should not be overlooked as a viable hybrid offering. It is simply behind a generation, that's all. Honda will come up with some clever way of making it competitive. Patience, grasshopper.
This type of patronizing will not win a lot of friends here. You should have stopped with the first sentence.

Regarding the question of Toyota hardware in the Insight: How EXACTLY can you prove that it is NOT true? It's not, by the way.

I would also appreciate if someone has links to fuel cell Priusesses, if available. Always interested in new stuff.

:p
 
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