Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Bought a 2001 Insight with automatic transmission for my grandson and I knew it needed work. Previous owner said car worked fine as long as they put the car on 12v battery charger at night. They also said they had to disconnect the 12v battery occasionally in order to keep the 12v operating system at reasonable voltage. They had added a cigarette lighter voltage meter to keep track of that.

The IMA light was on and the battery condition meters were working when I brought it home, but the dash battery condition meters have now gone blank.

I have installed a new bosch 12v battery and that produced no change.

I ran Torque Pro and got the P0560 P1580 and P1586 codes. I can clear them with Torque Pro and they return immediately. I have some spare battery pack parts, but no complete, working battery pack. I have an RB Battery charger, but have not tried it yet.

Where should I start? Thanks in advance!

Mike
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,770 Posts
P1580 & P1586 pdfs attached.

Diagnostics suggest a problem with battery current sensor and or the BCM.

You can't clear underlying IMA codes with torque pro, you can only clear the ecm DTC's, you must do the 12v disconnect or fuse 18 pull to clear IMA codes.

Of course they will come straight back if you haven't fixed the problem.

My advice.

1) Do all the normal stuff like engine grounds, 12v battery condition/charge check etc etc.

2) Do you have a spare BCM? If so swap that, clear the ima codes and see what happens.

3) Do you have a spare MCM? If so swap that, clear the ima codes and see what happens.

4) Do you have a spare BCM battery current sensor? If so swap that, clear the ima codes and see what happens.

5) Report back on progress and update us with any final result.

P0560 is probably engine related I didn't look at that one.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
ok, working on it. Checked fuses, nothing blown. Pulled grounds, cleaned the contact surfaces, reinstalled, no apparent issues. Checked the draw on the battery with key out. It pulls about 60 ma, then gradually reduces and seems to stabilize around 11 ma draw. 12v battery condition is good.

So, I guess I am on to swapping out bcm, mcm and sensors next. I have a RB grid charger that I purchased to condition this battery and a battery on my daughter's 2005 Civic. Haven't gotten to that with either car yet.

It may be a few days before I get back to this project. I had planned to pull the whole battery pack and give it a good look for grounds, general condition and to install the RB Battery grid harness.

Thanks

Mike
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,421 Posts
ground contact surfaces are not particularly relevant. The ground straps corrode internally under the plastic sleeve.

Regarding the RB, ensure you use separate harnesses for the vehicles. They are not compatible. Fan control is different between them. If you were thinking cooling isn't necessary, you're very wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
rb harness

thanks, Keith. I bought both harnesses, so that I can charge the insight and the civic using the same charger, with the separate harnesses. I believe you on the cooling fan issue. I don't know what would happen with overheating the pack, but it would not be good. Cheers, M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
bcm and mcm

are these units different for an insight with the cvt tranny rather than the 5 speed manual? I have a pair, but I am not sure what they came out of, almost certainly a 5 speed manual.

Thanks

Mike
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,770 Posts
They are interchangeable albeit with slightly different characteristics that haven't been exactly quantified.

Anyway they will be fine for testing..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
swapped out the MCM, no change

I had a mcm ending in the 904cv which I think is the correct one for CVT. I put in a 905, no change, except the 560 code is now coming and going. I am ignoring that one for now. I think it may have something to do with the state of charge of the 12v battery which is variable at this time.

SOC meter on the dash, still blank. So still looking at P1580 and P1586. On to the BCM swap
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
swapped out the BCM, now showing P1648

So now running on the swapped out MCM and BCM and I get P1648 and the other codes are gone. I can clear the code, it keeps coming back. P0560 still coming and going. SOC meter on the dash still showing nothing. Smells like progress to me.

I bet I am going to be swapping out a junction board next, but I will wait for advice. I am in no great hurry and I really appreciate having folks with experience weigh in with advice and directions. Thanks a bunch,

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
swapping out battery cells now

I got the pack out and gave it a quick look and I could see a fair amount of corrosion. I checked voltages on the 20 sticks and there are numerous very bad sticks, so I am moving ahead to replace the battery sticks. I have an extra pack of sticks that look much better than these sticks, but they came from a junkyard pack and the remover cut wires left and right, so I am going to need to splice the three sensor wiresets from the module on top to the three sticks where they attach inside the shrink wrap. Can I get some help with this step? Is it ok to splice those wires?

I am hoping that all the error codes and issues will go away once I have a healthy set of sticks in the ima battery.

Thanks

Mike
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,149 Posts
Did the bad sticks have PTC strips installed? You can see the ends of the PTC strips held in place by the small screws just below the stick bolts.

What is the color of the heat shrink on the sticks. That will help identify the source and help with recovery strategies. You can see the color by looking into the front or the back of the pack.

For starters, don't mix orange sticks with any other color. They have different discharge characteristics.

There are 4 thermistor sensors installed on 4 sticks under a short length of heat shrink. afaik, it would be ok to splice the sensor wires if you soldered the splice. Haven't done that though.

Rebuilding packs is not a very encouraging proposition. Numerous smart folks have tried without a lot of success.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Yes, PTC strips on the original and on the donor pack of battery cylinder.

Original (really bad) battery cylinders were shrinkwrapped orange.

Donor pack battery cylinders are shrinkwrapped in yellow. I did not mix the sets, went with the full replacement. The voltages on the donor pack were pretty consistent throughout, no signs of bad cells.

You are correct, 4 thermisters. I am going to try to splice and solder and see what happens.

I have been working on rebuilding prius packs with fair results. This is my first attempt at a honda pack. I am under the impression that the prius modules can be mixed and matched more easily than the Honda battery cylinders, but who knows? I am going slow, being careful and hoping when I turn the key, the CEL and IMA lights are gone. Probably a couple more days before I am at the turnkey spot.

I am currently trying to maintain a 2005 prius, a 2001 insight, a 2004 civic hybrid and a 2013 insight. I also have a full electric 2007 Zenn towncar. I have spare battery packs for each of the vehicles, but I am using up my gen 1 insight pack now. I have more parts and interest than skill or good sense. My daughter and her sons are tolerant of the fact that they never know which rig will be on the road from week to week. Right now, both insights are off the road.

Thanks for the response,

Mike
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,149 Posts
The orange sticks are the original Honda Panasonic/Primearth sticks. The yellow sticks are likely Panasonic/Primearth manuf. from a Honda Civic. I have not mixed the two, but as I understand it, you are using a full "yellow" pack. If all the yellow sticks are well matched you may be in relatively good shape.

Be sure to check out the link in S Keith's posts to measuring tap voltages. That seems to be one of the keys to figuring out what is going on with a pack.

The reason I asked about heatshrink color was to try to identify the source of the sticks in the bad pack. The chinese sticks, which usually have other colors, are know to leak electrolyte and cause serious corrosion issues. If the Chinese sticks are coupled with PTC strips the electrolyte can eat through the PTC insulation causing BCM high voltage shorts. There has been some posts on the subject. I don't think I have heard of the orange or yellow sticks causing that problem. Most builders have eliminated the PTC strips by just putting a resistor across the red and black PTC wires, usually in the external harness to the BCM. About 20 ohms will do the job of faking a good PTC circuit. Honda themselves dropped the PTC circuit after the Gen1 and, I think, first gen Civic. There is a service note around here somewhere on the subject. I think I got this all correct, but someone will comment if not.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,770 Posts
So now running on the swapped out MCM and BCM and I get P1648 and the other codes are gone. I can clear the code, it keeps coming back. P0560 still coming and going. SOC meter on the dash still showing nothing. Smells like progress to me.

I bet I am going to be swapping out a junction board next, but I will wait for advice. I am in no great hurry and I really appreciate having folks with experience weigh in with advice and directions. Thanks a bunch,

Mike
Did you swap both the BCM and MCM together?

Or one at a time and note any changes etc?

P1648 has two subcodes and is nothing to do with battery sticks.. See attached..

Check for under dash fuses blown or misplaced (very easy to do) again..
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I swapped out the bcm and mcm separately. First swap with the mcm changed nothing. Second swap with the bcm changed the code to 1648. I put the original bcm back in and I got 1586, then back to the swap and got 1648 again. 560 is coming and going, but I am ignoring that for now.

The original pack of orange sticks were wildly out of balance with readings from 2.010v to 5.866v and there was evidence of corrosion and leakage, so I shifted approach and went on to swapping out for a more balanced set of cylinders that show no sign of leakage. I did not do loadtest, just a basic voltage reading to check balance and inspection for signs of leakage. Donor pack has voltage from 2.509v to 4.323 with majority coming in around 3.5v. It's been sitting a long time.

I am also picking up another complete set of orange cylinders today that have been reconditioned by my friend Deane, but I want to try these yellow cells and put them on the rb grid charger and see if they are a decent set. Once I have that put back together, I am back to turning the key to see if all the light and codes are gone.

I am mulling the whole ptc question. I read a bit on that and it sounds like I could do away with that aspect and replace with a single resister. Learning as I go.

Thanks for all the help

Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Did you swap both the BCM and MCM together?

Or one at a time and note any changes etc?

P1648 has two subcodes and is nothing to do with battery sticks.. See attached..

Check for under dash fuses blown or misplaced (very easy to do) again..
Checked the fuses under dash and under hood. Everything looks right on amperage rating and no blown fuses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Most builders have eliminated the PTC strips by just putting a resistor across the red and black PTC wires, usually in the external harness to the BCM. About 20 ohms will do the job of faking a good PTC circuit. Honda themselves dropped the PTC circuit after the Gen1 and, I think, first gen Civic. There is a service note around here somewhere on the subject. I think I got this all correct, but someone will comment if not.
Thanks, I am absorbing this bit of information right now. Seems like a good idea to be done with the original complicated PTC circuit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I have put the battery and bcm/mcm back in the insight with the new battery cylinders. I have the grid charger hooked up and it is showing 165v and building. This batch of cylinders was in state of discharge from being in warehouse for maybe a couple of years.

Initial read on things: Still getting the P1586 code. Still occasionally getting the P1580 and P0560 code, but on good news: I see voltage read on the 12v battery fluctuating in a manner that suggests the 12v battery is now being recognized and charged by the IMA system. That seems like a big success to me.

State of charge meter on the dash is still blank, so maybe I should have swapped out the junction board. I am going to let the grid charger run over night, then tomorrow, if I am still seeing the 1586 code, I think I will pull the pack again and swap out the junction board in case the 1586 issue is the voltage sensor on the junction board.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,149 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
55 Posts
Got methodical about trying all four combinations of BCM and MCM that I could with the two sets that I have and the arrangement that looks the most promising was to replace both of the original units with my junkyard set. That did result in the SOC meter on the dash coming to life and showing a half charged battery pack. I think that setup also resulted in a system that keeps the 12v battery charged up. That is the good news.

Here's the bad: on drive, there is no indication of charge or assist from the IMA system. IMA light, CED and maint req'd lights all on. I have steady P1648 error code and occasional P0560 code. I tried to get the blink codes and I failed. Not sure what I am doing wrong on that, but I will keep at it. I am jumping across the two contacts shown on the 99mpg site, but getting no blinks.

Feeling a little dumb about failure with tool as simple as a paperclip, but that will go away once I get this step completed. I am just turning the key to on position, no engine start, then jumping the ODBII socket. I have tried clearing by disconnecting the 12v battery for 30 seconds. I have tried the on/off switch on the IMA battery in the back. No joy. Going to borrow a decent ODBII scanner today and give that a try to see if it will give me the subcodes/blinkcodes without requiring paperclip skillset.
 
1 - 20 of 42 Posts
Top