Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,444 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Rick and Yves:

___Did either of you see D0li0’s response in the Yahoo forum? I sure hope something comes of this Lead Acid technology because that would make Hybrid’s that much more attractive for everyone …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:b28w91i9][email protected][/email:b28w91i9]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,444 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
xcel, A lot of his comments are flawed. VRLA are matenience free, they just have a blow off vaulve if the pressure gets too high (ie way overcharged). Heck Hawker, which is the battery they are using I think, says in their data sheets that their batteries can be used for hybrid vehicles, they just need to be plugged in to top them off for optimal life since hybrids tend to operate them no higher than 80%. But if the car were programmed to do an equalizing charge once in a while you could eliminate this need even.

Throw some good cooling on a pack of hawkers and they would probably perform better in the hot south than the nickel metals probably would, although they would suffer in the cold cold probably more so than nickel metals. I guess it would depend on the prive vs frequency of replacment need.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Rick:

___Likely so … The item I see is Hawker is involved. Do you think they are seeing a possible loss of future market with Ni-MH’s, Li-Ion’s, or Zn-Air’s supplying all of the electrical needs of future Hybrid’s or even taking over in other automobiles once the expense issues are overcome?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2fraxcan][email protected][/email:2fraxcan]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
Hi Rick,

Thanks for the link. The reason I'm thinking about this is because of the issue of cycle life and depth of discharge - ie gains in one mean losses in the other.

If the Insight battery is 144V x 6.5 Ah, that's a maximum available energy of 936 Wh. However, if the battery were allowed to drain and fill completely all the way from 0% to 100% all the time, it would die inside a year! To have this amount of energy in 30Wh/kg in lead acid would mean a battery weight (not including packaging and controls) of around 30kg, but the paper says it is 44kg in their test vehicle - so maybe they are using a narrower window of SOC than the NiMH in the Insight, and aiming for about 1.5kWh total? If they are, then that would mean a cost (of cells alone) of around $300 for the new lead acid packs at todays prices. Could turn out to be a cheaper replacement than the OEM!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
830 Posts
Hi,

If you read the PDF document, maybe you can confirm this:

They use more battery cells than needed in order to 'condition' the cells individually dynamically.

So on the fly and at any time they can condition (I suppose this rejuvinate the cell) any cell. They use a 36V pack of 19 cells. This is 38 volts so they always have one Extra cell and at any time, they use 18 of 19 cells.
The extra cell can be any at any time and they condition all of them while driving (one at a time)

This in a NiMh of our Insight could have removed the need for Recalibration. If Honda would have thought about it. They could have reconditioned any of our 144 cells if they had just put 1 more and a mechanism to use 144 of 145 at any time.They seem to use relays on top of each cell.

BTW our pack is 28.3 Kg as stated into the PDF document.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
If Honda would have thought about it. They could have reconditioned any of our 144 cells if they had just put 1 more and a mechanism to use 144 of 145 at any time.They seem to use relays on top of each cell.
Probably patented! Gets in the way of all sorts of great inventions (and intentions) in the car industry. The Atkinson cycle engine was actually developed as a way of getting round Miller's patents on the internal combustion engine 4-stroke cycle - it was just an unexpected bonus that it turned out to be so much more efficient!

By the way, I've read the PDFs and still can't see the maximum and minimum SOC the Insight battery is allowed to reach in normal driving. Anyone?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,444 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Very interesting. Likely patent issues in the way yes. I'll have to ask my friend with their production electric S10 (slipped through the system, haha GM) how it goes about it's matenience routines. It's got 26 batteries (I think) and he showed me on their interfaced palm pilot how it can show voltage and SOC of each individual battery and that ever 10 charges it automatically equalizes the pack. And when kept over 50% DOD the life of their panasonic lead acid pack is expected to be around 50,000 miles. Now utilize technology like this and tighten the allowable SOC range (I would expect it to be higher) and I bet you could get the lead pack to last at least that long if not much longer in a hybrid.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
20% to 80%.
Thanks el_vacho. Reason I asked was because I wondered if it couldn't also be done with todays ultracapacitors. These would last longer than the car itself, so there wouldn't be any concerns about mileage or replacement issues.

Don't like to go off topic, so made a new thread about them here:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1080
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top