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Discussion Starter #1
I know there's lot's of discussions about EV Insights and various battery mods/upgrades on the site but I wanted to start a new thread for two reasons.

1) After much thought I'm going to go with an upgraded Li-ion 50 ah battery pack in my Insight to make a phev and not a full electric at this stage. I can save money by converting one of my existing cars, so that means I have the £2000 budget needed for a set of 40x50aha Thunder Sky LCP cells. 8)

2) I also want to see if anyone on here in the UK wants to join in a UK Bulk purchase of TS cells so we can get the price down. My post's on several EV sites are hoping to get some support from the UK EV Community. ;)

"I'm starting a thread on the UK BVS society forum to discuss this
idea, and to gather firm expressions of interest and commitment from
other UK EV enthusiasts who would be up for participating in another
UK bulk purchase of TS cells. Note the bulk purchase is for LCP/LMP
cells only not LFP which have licensing problems.

You need to register on the BVS forum to particiapte or post re this,
and all discussion will take place on the BVS forum thread.

http://www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk ... php?t=1010

http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en. ... 66&fid2=70

This would be run along the same lines as the first UK one in 2003,
and would involve money up front to the UK agent (Reap systems) and a
minimum 12 week delivery time via sea to Southampton, where all cells
would be collected by the individuals from the group. You should bank
on no guarantees whatsoever, and make your mind up on that basis.
This bulk purchase is not affiliated with or backed by the BVS or any
individual.

The price I/we are aiming for is £1.00 - £1.10 per Ah inc vat and
import duty/shipping etc. So a 50ah cell will cost £50-£55 each. We
could get lucky and depending on total quantity maybe get a lower
price!

I'm happy to put my money up front as I did before for a new set of
45 x TS-LCP50AHA Cells for my Honda Insight PHEV project.

Add your name and comments to this thread together with details and
quantities of cells your are interested in. Note no LFP cells!

I will liase with Reap Systems so questions on the forum only at this
time please, I know they are busy moving offices.

Final commitment will be required by the end of April 08. This gives
us a month to spread the word and make up our minds. If we cannot
raise a big enough order then the purchase may not go ahead at all,
so the more the merrier.

Peter
I'm happy to build up the TS cells into a useable battery pack and I can take the sensors and heat sensing strips etc out of one of my spare IMA packs and incorporate them into the new pack or fake the signals as required.

Now asuming I have a functioning battery pack of say 45 ah useable capacity compared to the 4.5 ah of a normal IMA pack, how can I/we con the current sensors in the IMA system to think it's still dealing with a 4.5 ah pack and register the charge/soc correctly, Divide current sensor outputs by 10? Ideas?

I will probably add a little pic and lcd display to monitor battery pack parameters independently of the car systems as fail safe system.
 

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retepsnikrep said:
Now asuming I have a functioning battery pack of say 45 ah useable capacity compared to the 4.5 ah of a normal IMA pack, how can I/we con the current sensors in the IMA system to think it's still dealing with a 4.5 ah pack and register the charge/soc correctly, Divide current sensor outputs by 10? Ideas?
I think this is why Mike ended up using a DC/DC to feed a controlled amount of current into the stock pack, thorugh the stock current sensor. It is almost certainly easier to build a BMS for the additional pack and use it to feed the stock pack in a way the IMA can handle than to try to trick the IMA into "seeing" a larger battery. The BCM hasn't been fully cracked- that is, its behavior isn't completely understood.

But if you can find a way to get the IMA to handle a larger capacity battery, you'll definitely earn a cookie.

EDIT: It may be easier than previously thought: http://www.insightcentral.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7463&start=0#p65966 Giggitty. 8)

Looking forward to hearing about your progress on this.

Cheers
 

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I can't believe I missed this thread, I actually found it doing a google search for phev Insight :)

So far I have been running mine for a week with the parallel setup, charging about 1.2 KWh every night which works out to just under 10 cents worth of electricity at 7.2 cents a KW. My in town stop and go driving on my 10 mile daily commute (spread out over three different times) as been as high as 100+ mpg and as low as 70 mpg. Normally I am around 50mpg - 60mpg for the same route. I figure gas has been costing me about 5.8 cents a mile @ 60mpg. With a 85 mpg average it is at 4.1 cents a mile. With PHEV I can spread out the batteries over the ten miles, for an additional 1 cent per mile cost on electricity, for a total of 5.1 cents per mile.

Basically, to make it economical, at $3.50 a gallon for gas, and 7.2 cents a KWh or 10 cents a charge. These numbers will also vary depending on size of the batteries, the length of the commute, etc.:

For my 10 mile daily:

If you got 55 mpg before, you need to get 65 mpg to break even
If you got 65 mpg before, you need to get 80 mpg to break even
If you got 75 mpg before, you need to get 95 mpg to break even
If you got 95 mpg before, you need to get 130 mpg to break even

So it all boils down to the cost of gas and electricity. As gas gets to be more expensive the numbers shift in favor of PHEV. So far I'm past the break even point, minus the $500 I have into batteries, charger, and parts for the parallel mod. Also learning what techniques work best for PHEV will raise the average mpg.
 

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uhtrinity has posted about his parallel setup... after recal his Insight makes use of the 8ish Ah it has from two packs... I don't think anyone yet knows how high the Honda BCM will adjust for Ah capacity of a pack....

If it is based on the hardware limits of the memory used in the BCM then it should be following the binary pattern... so 8Ah works, if it goes above that then 16Ah would be next and 32Ah after that etc.... if it will track the Ah of your 45+4 = 49Ah combined capacity then that would mean it might go as high as 64Ah.

If it is software limited it could stop adjusting for higher Battery Ah capacity at any point.... but uhtrinity's test show it at least gets up near 8Ah.

Although I personally still prefer the other connection points that Mike has been using at the MDM posts to the Battery... This combined with Current limiting controls makes a nice Boost system... the boost systems supplied current offsetting current that comes from the IMA battery... and the BCM tracks the IMA battery as designed to... In order to make the boost battery safe you add a separate BCM of your own design to the booster battery.... a PHEV charged boost battery will not mess up the BCM or cause recal.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Lithium Choices

I'm pondering on what cells to get for my PHEV project.

A new UK supplier importing Li-fepo4 cells has appeared with "reasonable" prices. The data sheets for the various cells are here.

http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/10AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/20AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/30AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/40AH.doc
http://www.solarvan.co.uk/insight/50AH.doc

Sorry they are in WORD.doc format as I got them.

Charging looks like the issue with these can/will they take 50A charge for short periods?

Should I retain the nimh pack as a buffer and use the Li purely to boost the nimh or should I replace the nimh and go with a replacement li pack, a bit of work to con the BCM but not impossible. I'm happy enough to sort my own BMS for the Li and I have a suitable offboard charger so that's no problem.

I like the look of the 30ah cells x 48 gives reasonable weight, circa 50kg. I don't want to lug around huge weight. If I replace nimh then that cuts down excess to about 30kg over standard. They can push 90A for 15 seconds, so can probably manage 100A for the short periods of full assist.

I could get 50ah TS lcp cells they have better capacity to weight ratio and are very rugged but not state of the art. Choices :roll:

Help :shock:
 

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At 10A charge / discharge, or 90A instantaneous the only way you could use them would be as a booster like Mike did. Any stand alone configuration would have to be a parallel setup plus an external charger. With a standalone setup wouldn't you also have to disable regen or can this type of battery take a charge using conventional methods for short periods of time?


On my setup I have been using very heavy manual assist over my 10 mile commute and have had some days where I don't quite use all 8Ah's.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Dgate said:
Hey fellows check this out for a conversion....http://www.poulsenhybrid.com:80/

DGate
Very interesting, not sure about how the 5kw of torque arm would pop rivet onto the rear fender :shock: But good idea all the same.
 

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I would modify or loose the spat and only use one unit since the Insight is so light and easy to roll.
A modified spat would bulge out to cover the motor protrusion and have a vertical slot where the torgue arm went through.
Seems to me the torgue arm could go to the front or rear depending on door configuration and could be mounted in a number of ways not just riveted to the fender.
With anything like this you have to use your imagination in mounting it to different cars.
I should also hope the arm is slotted or splined to extend since the demo picture has the arms pivot point at the rear and the cars trailing arm suspension's pivot point at the front, Impossible geometry without this facility.

DGate
 

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If the pivot arm could be placed in front, it may be best for the Insight for a couple of reasons:

1) The arm could be mounted to something more solid than the rear plastic bumber.

2) Because of the taper towards the rear, there is more internal room for the pivot arm so that it will not stick out (as much or not at all).

3) You may be able to keep a modified splat on the car and have the arm behind the splat. The splat would still have to be modified to stick out more due to the motor thickness but it could probably all fit behind the splat.

Although some people may think it will look strange installed, it does seem to be one of the easiest ways to adapt to just about any vehicle.

JoeCVT = Just your average CVT owner
 

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I like this idea... A LOT.

No word on how it is controlled.
Is it always full on or off? Or is there continuously variable assist?
how do you turn it on? Etc.

A nice joystick controller like MIMA would be nice!
 

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Conversion kit including:

* 2 Poulsen Hybrid motors.
* Auxiliary Components and cables
* 2 brushless DC motor controllers
* 72V 120Ah Deep Cycle Lead Acid battery pack (6 batteries).
* On-board charger, 72V, 10A.

Total $3,300


It looks like the controllers would have their own variable (I assume) motor control. Something like this most likely operate completely independent of any other system.
 

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I think these guys stand to make a lot of money from this idea as an easy add on to improve economy for the right cars.

If the motors are strong enough which I don't believe they are, the Insight could be made into a full EV as well.
Just remove everything up front,engine,gearbox,IMA,driveshafts,cooling sys,exhaust sys,fuel tank,plus everything in the rear.
Add chosen batteries distributed for balance,electrically driven A/C compressor from Prius and Brake vacuum booster plus controllers and wala a light wt aerodynamic EV with no complicated drive system.
There is no regen either (DC motors)?

DGate
 

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I posted about this on a different thread last week.
The unsprung weight of that motor hanging off the wheel would likely pop tires on the type of pot holes we have around here, especially with high tire pressure.
A close look at the drawings does not show that the trailing torque arm can also translate in and out, which will need to happen for this to work.
The 72V brushless controllers may be the Kelly controll units.
http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Brus ... oller.html
Definitely an interesting approach to powering the rear wheels.
Some one needs to buy this and try it out. I called the place, and when I asked about the system, I was transfered to the voice mail of the company president who never got back to me????
 

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The Poulsen wheel motors talk about "Added un-sprung weight, 38 lb per wheel" for 10 kW

If I were to go with a E-Wheel motor so far I like the PML more power per pound and they have regenerative braking.
There Hi-Pa wheel motor at 39pounds gives 40kW and 46pounds gives 80kW
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html

or go lighter but loose the Regenerative braking in there DC wheel motors...
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/pdfs/eWheel.pdf

~2 HP per wheel for about ~9 pounds per wheel.... 4 of these would distribute the ~8HP and ~36 pounds over 4 wheels.

Although I still have my doubts about adding a bunch of unsprung weight ... and the durability of any motor in as harsh of an environment as a year round in wheel application.... that is the big issues for me... otherwise I love the idea of wheel motors.... maybe with the right suspension system it would work well. :doubt:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
More Lithium Choices.

Thundersky TSLCP-50ah cells (1.6kg) approx 45 cells reqd weight 72kg, take off nimh pack 22kg and means carrying around 50kg extra for a 50ah main pack.

Worth it? I know they are rugged and reliable and I have a basic BMS on the bench.

50kg call it 4% extra weight for vehicle. Projected mph hit due to weight, anyone care to guess?

Hopefully any weight penaly would be over compensated for by almost unlimited IMA use! ;)

Kokam cells are vey nice, light and powerful but mega bucks :( Weight would be much less about 1kg each for a 40ah cell, again 45 reqd so that drops weight penalty down to about 25kg :)
 

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retepsnikrep said:
50kg call it 4% extra weight for vehicle. Projected mph hit due to weight, anyone care to guess?
4% more weight will directly give 4% more rolling resistance at any speed.

I would expect between 5% and 6% hit to your MPG due to the extra weight.

But for as long as you have the extra Ah you have an extra 10kW IMA motor to offset far more than the weight effects.

With 50Ah cells you are suggesting... that is a good bit of assist over a significant period of time.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
OK I've done it and ordered 50x40ah 3.2v li-fepo4 cells from a chinese supplier. :shock:

Hopefully be here in Uk in a month or so. I now have to work hard on the instalation which will be a replacement of the standard nimh pack. Cells weigh 1.3kg each, final installed number will be between 45-50 depending on V sag under load once tested and end of charge voltage limits.

45 cell pack li-fepo4 - nimh pack will mean an extra 38kg weight penalty but should give 10x the capacity of the standard pack. 8)

Couple of questions/ideas.

I will use the BCM to monitor the pack temp by transfering the thermistors over from one of my spare IMA packs.

I would like to implement the PTC strips as well and wind that through the new pack to monitor individual cells just as it does in the nimh pack, I don't really want to remove the strip from my subpacks, so does anyone know a supplier for it? Thanks to 'Uhtrinity' for good work in this area in determining it's value and the circuit/system characteristics.

I will use/let the BCM monitor the overall pack voltage, but will use a potential divider resistor array to provide fake voltages to the 10 subpack monitoring circuits. So to the BCM the battery will appear to be perfectly balanced at all time, although the total voltage will vary as normal. My question is what current flows into those individual subpack monitors? What is the value of that resistance in each subpack monitor wire? Will a PD made up of normal 0.6w metal film resistors do the job?

I am using an analogue over/under V and balancing cell monitor circuit on each cell initially, with a picaxe master monitoring the pack and displaying amps/in/out voltage/ etc.

Basically when charging at base offboard charger will be controlled by analogue cell monitors, when on the move cell monitors will trigger an over V alarm dash light and sound when a cell goes over V, Human then backs off regen until it goes off!
Not rocket science. Ditto during assist under cell V will again trigger alarm/light and Human cut's back on assist.

Lot's to do now before cells arrive ;)

Peter
 

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retepsnikrep said:
OK I've done it and ordered 50x40ah 3.2v li-fepo4 cells from a chinese supplier. :shock:
Peter
yeagh!!! one more PHEV Insight soon to be on the road :)

looking forward to hearing all about your progress. :)

Sorry I can not help to answer your questions though.
 
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