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Pictures and Tips From My 5 Speed Input Shaft Bearing Replacement

136K views 280 replies 43 participants last post by  minor4326 
#1 ·
This past weekend I completed some much needed maintenance and repairs on my 2000 Insight. Among the repairs was the replacement of the notorious input shaft bearing (ISB). My ISB had been in a state of failure for the past few months, growing quite loud this spring to the point where the first three gears sounded like they were crushing rocks. It was not long before the bearing was about to get very quiet (you start to worry when a known noisy bearing suddenly becomes quiet) and leave me at the side of the road. So the first weekend in October, the car was pulled into my shop (as soon as I cleared some room) and went under the knife.

I didn't really intend to take pictures for a writeup, but after I reviewed the reference pictures I took during the process, I figured that they might benefit others. Along the way I found a few things out that might help others in their first transmission rebuild. This was actually my first time disassembling a transmission with the aim to actually put it back together, and while not technically a full rebuild, I'm no longer worried for the inevitable time when I blow through another transmission in the RX-7. :) At any rate, I will now share my process. Typically I'd have better pictures than this but at the time I just needed them for reference so I grabbed my Blackberry 9530, the closest camera I had nearby. So they're not the greatest pictures, but will do the job.

Enough rambling, let's get to it.

Transmission removal is straightforward and the steps in the factory service manual are logical. With two exceptions, however:

1. The FSM instructs you to remove the lower ball joint bolt so that the hub can swing out, thus allowing clearance for the axles to be removed. I took one look at the limited access to that bolt and the necessity for a special tool and said to myself "Screw this". Instead, I removed the two large bolts that hold the strut to the hub. This allowed the top of the hub to swing down on the ball joint pivot, accomplishing the same thing. The axles were easily removed by swinging them a bit to the side once disengaged from the spindle. This is also a good time to check your sway bar end links, because I guarantee you will find them worn out. Both mine were as loose as a $5 hook...well, pretty loose. ;)

2. The FSM wants you to remove the rear engine mount in the middle of the process, before removing the axles and a bunch of other stuff. This made very little sense to me so I skipped that instruction and left all the engine mounts on until the very end. The with a jack under the transmission and one under the oil pan (with a block of wood to spread the load) I removed the mounts. It's a bit of a pain to access the 14MM bolts holding the rear mount to the transmission so I used a box end wrench and hit it with a hammer to shock them loose. I removed that mount as one piece but removing all the 14MM bolts and the two large 17MM bolts that hold the rear portion to the body. No need to remove the long bolt holding them together. Now is a good time to replace your mounts so check them. Odds are the rear one is bad.

Removing the transmission from the engine is pretty straightforward but often they are stuck. You can carefully pry alternately side to side to loosen it up. Use a jack to support it, don't let it dangle.

With the transmission out and on the bench, I followed the FSM instructions to disassemble it but hit a snag when removing the case. The instructions are a bit unclear in the fact that you need to expand the large snap right and lift off the case at the same time. This is really a two person job. I improvised by loosening up the case by prying a bit on the boss near the starter hole (pry against the boss, NOT the machined surface of the case halves) to break the seal. Then, I used a pair of snap ring pliers held open by duct tape, tapped the case a bit with a hammer, and was able to lift it off.



It may take some effort to separate the halves because the sealant will glue them together and the dowel pins will be stuck. Light tapping on each side with a plastic hammer was what gone mine apart. If you have to tap, be very careful not to snap off any of the casting. Some steady prying while tapping helps as well, but do not pry against the machined surface.

Once the transmission was split, I was able to immediately see some of the remains of my ISB. Evidence of self-machining is NOT what you want to see in a transmission! This all ended up near the reversing gear. Notice that gear has no bearing, only a bronze bushing. I'll remember that next time I hammer it in reverse. I hear some new car transmissions use plastic reversing gears.

 
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#253 ·
I'll just add a few thoughts to this G1 manual gearbox thread. Mine isn't finished yet but so far I note...

1) All the bearings in my spare box are worn/noisy. (Good job I ordered a complete new set from Scott.)

2) Although the box looks like it has been apart in the past the synchro tabs were still present. (I ground them off, a big round back quality file was way quicker than a Dremel)

3) I bought a small press to help with the rebuild but also used the hitting the things hard on blocks of hard wood on the floor method.

4) The diff bearing on the speed sensor side was a total PITA and I also had to grind slots in it to get a puller on it.

5) So far i have done both shafts and the diff assembly. All new bearings etc.

6) I bought a small six ton bench press for some of the work, it was useful but not indispensable, and didn't help with the diff bearing.

7) I messed up when pulling the box apart as I though there would be shims on both sides of the Diff.
There aren't. The other is from one of the gear shafts and fits in the casing.
I mixed mine up so don't know now which goes where. They are the same diameter but differ in thickness.
Luckily mine are only 0.1mm difference in thickness so I'll just use pot luck.

8) Make sure the gear selection works on each shaft.
The selector should slide back and forth easily if it's back together correctly,.
I had to partly disassemble one of mine as I had one part slightly wrong and the selector on that shaft would not move.

9) It's quite rewarding and interesting doing the rebuild.

10) Thanks to Scott, Bulldog and the others on here for the advice so far.
 
#255 ·
I would like to add to this while its still fresh.

1) One difficult thing is dealing with the friction dampers and the 3 tiny little notches that need to line up. Since I messed with this for a bit and also wanted to make sure that I was 100% satisfied that I lined them up properly. The best way to get these in are to drop the damper or gear on top of the damper to not line up when dropping them in, then twist the gear slowly until you hear an audible click and feel it drop in also. If you happened to line up the damper perfectly and you don't hear an audible click, then lift up the gear and move the damper slightly so it doesn't line up so that you hear this audible click and feel it drop in. Keep doing this a few times until you get the feel of it as you can easily lift the gear up and move the damper slightly. Both dampers you can feel and hear them drop in. Just make sure to do this a few times until you get the hang of it. The reason why I recommend it this way is that if you try to line it up, and you don't hear or feel it drop in, you will not be 100% sure if you got them in. You will then flatten the tabs and this will add to your gear tolerances, which are suppose to be within .004".


2) To remove the retaining nut on the countershaft, just hit it with an impact gun and don't even bother to knock out the metal notch, you will just make things worse and fatigue the metal by wasting your time banging it out. This nut is also reverse threaded, so it comes off by turning in the clock wise direction.

3) Be cautious with the mainshaft bearing as the inner race sticks out further on one side then the other. I believe the countershaft bearings are the same way also. I would not have known that if my new bearing did not come with a shield on it, the old bearing looked the same on both sides.

4) Pressure wash the transmission before opening it up, I wish I had done this step. Debris from all over the transmission case continues to fall into my transmission. I even notice when I spun my newly installed input shaft bearing, I felt it scratchy from some of this debris that must have fallen into it, I believe it has gone away after spinning it enough.
 
#256 ·
What do you guys think of this? I purchased this seal for the gear shift lever, but I'm thinking about not even messing with this as I don't have any leaks.

I also purchased the seal for the differential speedometer, I'm also not going to change this as its not leaking.

I circled the seal in the picture below.

What would you recommend, should I replace or just leave it if it is not leaking. I believe, if it ever did leak, I could change this seal without dropping the transmission.


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#258 ·
I just want to say that if I ever finish this transmission rebuild, I will have a lengthy post about why you should not rebuild your transmission and just pay a professional.

A bolt broke off that holds down the bearing.

When I was setting them to torque spec, of 8.7ft lbs, the bolt broke off inside. I'm not sure really why, but the bolt has a skinnier top part for some reason. I believe the threads may not be good because I felt that the bolt keep turning for a while before it broke.

It was a nightmare to get out because the bolt broke off at an angle, I could not drill it by hand. I had to actually use my milling machine and clamp down the transmission in order to drill it. Luckily it came out with a screw extractor after I was able to drill a hole.

I then was able to use the other bolt and it seemed to torque down to around 8 or 9 ft lbs, but I won't go to 10ft lbs out of fear of it breaking.

A couple of questions if someone can give me advice here. The threads are very deep in this area, would it be OK to use a longer 6mm bolt to grab the threads that are further down? Would any steel 6mm bolt be OK to use, or should it be a certain material?

Do you think it would it be OK to use blue locktite if I buy another bolt the same size, this way if the threads are a little busted, this may hold it in better.

Thanks again for any advice here.

This picture shows one good bolt, and one broken bolt. You can see the threading is different at the top for some reason, and not sure why.
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#263 ·
I just want to say that if I ever finish this transmission rebuild, I will have a lengthy post about why you should not rebuild your transmission and just pay a professional.

A bolt broke off that holds down the bearing.
I think we've all been there (broken bolt, striped head, incorrect reassembly, smoke, fire...). I've been really impressed with how much seemingly regular people can do especially in this group. I wouldn't dissuade them from trying and worst case they wreck a $2K car, that's a pretty low risk. Sorry you ran into a broken bolt, but nice work figuring it out. If it makes you feel better I had to drop and disassemble my transmission twice because I put a gear in wrong, but it was actually almost fun the second time because I knew what I was doing.
 
#259 ·
I would chase the threads with a 6x1.0 tap, bottoming tap preferably.
As long as there is more depth in the hole for a longer bolt, it won’t be a problem.

Scott
 
#260 ·
Thanks, I actually had these slightly longer M6 bolts, they are about 3mm long.

I used both of these to replace the old bolts and torqued it down to the 8.7Ft lbs.

This was a nightmare breaking this bolt, I thought I was really in trouble here.

The pictures are with the new bolts, and the bottom is the 2 new bolts with the older shorter one.

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#261 · (Edited)
@insightbuyer
Those two bearing retainer bolts look like they have been massively over torqued and stretched at some time.
The unbroken one looks very near failure. Previous rebuild maybe?

I just finished my own box rebuild yesterday.
No significant issues to report and all gears select correctly.
Thanks to all previous posters and Scott and Bulldog for advice.

Most tricky bit getting the diff bearing near the speed sensor gear off.
I had to grind slots in the side of mine to get a puller on it.

Levering the shaft upwards via the gear selector opening when snapping back on the case retaining bearing clip is the way to go.
 
#264 ·
Levering the shaft upwards via the gear selector opening when snapping back on the case retaining bearing clip is the way to go.
Could you explain that because I did a dry run of closing my case and I just pushed it back on and the clamp was almost on the bearing, but not quite so.

I just dropped the case on itself and it went right on and clipped in.

It was not difficult at all, why do anything through the gear selector opening?
 
#262 ·
It looks like the original bolts got thinner because they were twisted. Maybe when you were taking them out? One finally came out and the other one twisted off and broke. —Sam
 
#268 ·
Any recommendation on if I should be using any type of never seize on the transmission bolts going into the magnesium case? Would regular copper never sieze be OK for this? Does it matter because the case is magnesium and not steel?

I didn't apply any when closing up the transmission, so this would be for the transmission mounting bolts to the engine.

Is it recommended to use never seize on all the bolts that are screwed into the transmission, even for the brackets above it?

Thanks.
 
#269 · (Edited)
Just an update, I got the transmission closed up and installed on the car. Everything seems to be very smooth and shifts smooth. I still need to torque everything to spec. and refill the transmission with fluid. I only tested it with the car off.

I did a couple of stupid things today.

I removed the dowel pins to clean and apply the gasket sealer. Could you believe that I closed up the case fully and realized I forgot to install the two dowel pins. I acted quickly and opened the case back up in just minutes and reapplied sealant to where I stuck the screw drivers in to break away the case, then closed it back up. I did read honda bond should be removed if you wait over 5 minutes, I was probably in the 10-15 minutes mark. I just didn't feel like removing and reapplying the paste, but maybe I should have in hindsight.

Then I realized I forgot a spring in one of the 3 bolts which hold the spring and ball bearing. Not a big deal. I checked thoroughly for any other parts where I was working.

Being that I can Open and close the transmission case in just minutes, this is how I do it.

To close it, you drop the top case down as far as it will go. You then with one hand open up the clip with your snap ring tool, and with the other hand, hit the top of the case with a heavy hammer or heavy rubber mallet, I use a mini metal sledge hammer, just a few knocks will be enough. When you release the clip with your tool, you will notice that it stays a little expanded and not all the way in the groove. You then just pick up the case and drop it on the top, this will cause the clip to go in the groove. I would drop it about 3-5 inches from the ground. Make sure to drop it on the opposite side of the shaft sticking out side obviously.

To open the case, you need two large screw drivers, carefully pry the case up on two sides and make sure that there is resistance with the screw drivers lifting the case, keep using a bigger screw driver if necessary, they should be jammed in there. Then just use your snap ring tool to open the clip. You can try to push on the screw driver to cause more resistance while opening up the clip. When you release your snap ring tool, you will notice the snap ring stays mostly open. This is because the screwdrivers wedges between the case are pushing up on the case, causing the snap ring to slide up and stay up. You then grab the case and lift it right up. If the snap ring is not staying mostly open, but still fully closed, you need more resistance to force the case open, use a bigger screw driver to force it between the case.

Its important to have a snap ring tool that opens the snap ring up fully, I use the channel lock 927.

Opening and closing the case is real simple once you know what you are doing.
 
#270 ·
@insightbuyer “Then I realized I forgot a spring in one of the 3 bolts which hold the spring and ball bearing. Not a big deal. I checked thoroughly for any other parts where I was working.”

The spring and detent ball help hold the transmission in gear. If you left out a spring and detent ball your transmission will probably pop out of gear.

@insightbuyer ”To close it, you drop the top case down as far as it will go. You then with one hand open up the clip with your snap ring tool, and with the other hand, hit the top of the case with a heavy hammer or heavy rubber mallet, I use a mini metal sledge hammer, just a few knocks will be enough. When you release the clip with your tool, you will notice that it stays a little expanded and not all the way in the groove. You then just pick up the case and drop it on the top, this will cause the clip to go in the groove. I would drop it about 3-5 inches from the ground. Make sure to drop it on the opposite side of the shaft sticking out side obviously.”

When assembling the case transmission housing to the clutch housing, (case halves) there is no reason to hit the case with a hammer or mallet or drop the transmission 3”-5”. No acrobatics are involved. There is a video on YouTube that the guy does something like this, it’s terrible advice.

Slide the top of the transmission housing on, with one hand you open the snap ring to the counter shaft and with the other hand you insert a large screwdriver through the shifter opening and lift slightly on the counter shaft, the shaft snaps into the snap ring as the case drops down a little. This process takes about 10 seconds. Peter tried to explain this a couple of post ago. Then you bolt the two case halves together.

Scott
 
#271 ·
Yes, that could be an easier way with the case, you should try that method then use mine as you could hurt your back easily dropping it also.

You are right with the spring, I did insert it back in of course, It just wasn't as big of a stupid deal as forgetting the two dowel pins, causing me to have to reopen the whole case again. I did not insert any bolts yet as I noticed the case swiveling when all the way down and knew that wasn't right.

This is why I'm going to write a thread here warning people away from doing a complete transmission rebuild if they can avoid it. Its not that I don't want people to try it, I just want to inform people that its very complicated, with many small parts and things have to be put back perfectly.

It is also extremely time consuming, expect to take 2 full weeks working on it full time, this includes many hours of research, many hours to figure everything out, its a very time consuming task and if doing it for the first time, it takes a lot of time. I just want to let people know who are on the fence that if you don't want to invest 2 full weeks of your time to do this, just don't, send it to a professional.

Then you have to be extremely careful about the stripping bolts in the magnesium case, this was a nightmare for me. I question if my torque wrench had issues. I had 3 different bolts that gave me a scare when using a torque wrench. We all know how many people strip the oil pan bolt, the transmission is the same. Even one of the outside case bolts gave me a scare. This is no joke here, you have to be very careful with the torque.

If you mess up just one small thing, you will have to remove the transmission and open it back up. Worst case, you will strip a bolt in there if not being extra careful. I would only recommend this job for someone who is extremely experienced mechanically and has 2 to 3 weeks available to work on this full time.
 
#272 ·
It is also extremely time consuming, expect to take 2 full weeks working on it full time, this includes many hours of research, many hours to figure everything out, its a very time consuming task and if doing it for the first time, it takes a lot of time. I just want to let people know who are on the fence that if you don't want to invest 2 full weeks of your time to do this, just don't, send it to a professional.
I have to strongly disagree.
A competent mechanic/enthusiast with the right tools, workshop manual and all the parts on hand can do the job in a full working day.
Allow perhaps two days for us amateurs to include some internet research. (It took me about two days in total and I wasn't rushing.)
 
#273 ·
^+1. I watched Scott do one in less than a day at a meet in CT. And he was describing what he was doing and constantly being interrupted with questions. I can certainly understand the process taking longer for an amateur, but not 13 days longer.—Sam
 
#274 ·
I want to start out this thread saying, this is my experience as someone who has worked on cars before, but has never done a major transmission or engine overhaul. Someone who works only on their own cars and doesn't do it that often.

Yes I agree, it can definitely be done quick if you know what you are doing. It took me over an hour just to figure out how to open and close the case, now I can do it in just minutes.
However, the whole job I would say took me 2 to 3 weeks, working 3-6 hour days on it. I would think most would take this long if you are doing this as your first major job.

Even in the 1st post of this thread the original poster mentioned expect the car to be down 2 weeks, he said this at the very end if its your first major job. I agree with him 100% here.

I would say if you put in 3-5 hours a day, it will take you easily two weeks if you include the hours of research you need to do every step. Removing the transmission for the first time, then installing it. I easily took 4-5 days / 3 to 5 hour days just removing the transmission and installing it. I have to figure out stuff like how to install the motor mounts properly, remove the axles.
It took me two days to remove the transmission, and it will take me two days to install it. It took me a few hours to install the clutch, so I count that as a day.
I would say to figure out all the parts I needed, about 2 days, of 3-5 hours of research and then I missed parts like the friction dampers.

I had to learn just about everything, how a transmission operates, to what every part does, to how the synchro's work.

There are just so many steps involved here and to me, it was very overwhelming to say the least. Lots of skills are involved in this and you have to learn a lot of new things.

I thought I was making good progress also, it was just the first time I ever did a major job like this. I wasted a lot of time with having to redo things over also.

Every step I researched, from taking apart the car, to even stuff like installing the seals properly, learning how to remove and install bearings. I probably easily put in about 3-5 hours a day for 14 days when said and done, probably even more as I hate to admit this.

I am very meticulous though when I do things on the car, so I make sure everything is done perfectly and well researched. I really do think when working on the transmission you need to be like this.

This thing got to the point that I told everyone around me that I'm going to work full time, all day until I get the job done because I'm in panic about my trip in 2 weeks to Las Vegas. This was after I had already put a lot of time into it. Again, this is just from my experience and everyone is different.
 
#276 ·
Congrats on completing the job. I wouldn't worry about it too much, just check for oil leaking out of the transmission ever couple months, but it should be pretty obvious if the case seal leaks and it won't leak fast enough to do any catastrophic damage. This job will last you the lifetime of the car probably. For the last five year's I start most conversations with, 'did you know I rebuilt my transmission?' Enjoy driving it without the downshift grinding.
 
#277 ·
Thanks andr0373, the transmission does not seem to be leaking after some days now.

I will say that I liked my old worn out clutch better, the new clutch engages way too early and its very easy to chatter the car by letting down too fast now. It is also harder to press the clutch pedal down. Its just a bit harder to have the same control as I did before as the more worn out clutch was more forgiving and didn't grab as hard. Maybe with time I will get used to it and relearn it.

The synchro mod works, no more grind in 1st and 2nd. I kind of forget, but it seems slightly harder to go into 2nd and maybe I'm just thinking this because someone mentioned this in another post by doing the synchro mod it will be slighter harder to shift into the gear. This is because those tabs we grinded off actually serve a purpose.

The reason this whole transmission rebuild took so long is that I just lack experience doing all of this work. I have good mechanical skills but I just rarely work on cars. I will add this, I wasted at least 2 more days because I did a stupid thing and touched those spring bolts on my exhaust because I forgot to install the motor mount bracket before I lifted the transmission in place. I had to drill out the two broken exhaust bolts and it was a very difficult and took hours to remove them, then I needed to change the exhaust gasket. If I had more experience I would have known better not to touch these bolts.
 
#278 ·
I may have to make this into its own thread unless someone has an idea here about this issue.

I noticed an odd rumbling type of noise when I am going really slow and just letting down the clutch, or maybe hitting the brake. It was hard to pinpoint the noise, I thought it maybe was because of my exhaust leak.

However, when I was under the car I pulled down on the cat and heard faintly a rumbling noise while the car was idling.

Then, if I pulled down on the axle, the same rumbling noise.

It seems that by pulling down the engine, either by grabbing the CAT or the axle, the engine rumbles. The transmission is in neutral at this time. Would anyone know what could cause the engine to rumble by pulling it down?

I'm not even pulling down hard to cause this while under the car.
 
#279 ·
Did you install your new engine mounts yet?

Did you tighten the through bolt that goes through the rear engine mount?
 
#280 ·
Yes, that seems fine, I was pushing on things on top of the engine, like the plastic intake, and it seemed to change noise. I'm going to take a closer look when the weather permits, its possible something is loose, maybe a connector or sensor, or something that when moved even slightly causes the engine to change noise. Its really not that noticeable and I'm just listening to every noise now that I just replaced the transmission, and I keep the radio off.
 
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