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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I have started my attempt. My plan was to get the 60 cell Atheos conversion with the stock BCM working, and then upgrade to the 72 cell version once the BCM replacer becomes available. I have an old Mike D. Genesis 1 grid charger, which I intended to use to do a balance charge on the battery. I have wired things up to the best of my understanding of the 60 cell Atheos setup and placed the batteries approximately where they will go. The extra 12 cells are just riding along for now. Once I get things working, I was going to fabricate brackets to hold the batteries in place. It has been many years since I've had a working IMA system, (probably since 2014/15) and I have rebuilt my old nimh pack many times. It is entirely possible that some of the 20 year old components in the Junction board have failed, or I damaged something with one of my pack rebuilds, however at this point, I naturally suspect that I have wired up something wrong. I am currently getting a p1568, p1449, and p1445 error. The grid charger is also too intelligent to charge the batteries with whatever way I have incorrectly hooked things up. The next step is to double check my connections I guess, and try to blink out the error codes. Maybe I should remove the grid charger too?
81992
 

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Def remove grid charger for now.

Did you check/charge and balance your cells/packs before installation?

You need to double check all your connections and blink out the codes as the one posted have several subcodes.

Video the flashing IMA/CEL and it will be easier to decode the sequences.

With the wiring as shown in the pic we have no idea if that is correct.

What exactly have you connected to what? What diagram have you followed?
We need tons more details and quality pics of the setup and connections to help.
 

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I don't think 2 1/2 packs (60 cells) is going to work very well. You need three packs to reach the proper voltage range

Atheos never really ran the 2 1/2 pack (60 cell) configuration, according to his thread.

Why are you trying 60 cells. The cells aren't sold that way, they have 24 cells/pack, in two halves, so you are supposed to have 72 cells on hand.

You may have something wrong in your primary circuit, because that Genesis charger will charge about anything. I use it myself to grid charge my conversion. Are you getting a charger code or just no charge current?

As Peter says, we can't see all the wiring, so some guessing. If you are getting P1449, that sounds a bit like the fooler isn't giving the BCM 10 equal tap voltages. Did you build your own? You do realize I suppose that the fooler needs to be connected across the entire battery.
 

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In studying your picture, I just realized that the Genesis charger harness is still permanently wired into the system. I think you need to remove that for now. You can reinstall it later, but you won't need the PTC and temperature board, or the fan board so you may want to modify the harness if you do a permanent installation of the harness. There isn't a lot of space with the full 3 pack installation.

Do you have some sort of base plate down under there to mount the batteries to? I see that the junction board is at an odd angle. Make sure the dc-dc converter cover is insulated with some kind of sheet insulation because there can be shorts with it so close. IMO, the batteries need to be securely mounted and careful attention needs be paid to potential shorts and electrical parts which might move. The batteries weigh about 30 pounds each, so three of them are going to create a tremendous amount of forward inertia if you have even a low speed frontal crash.

What are all those little red dots I see in the picture? They almost look like wire nuts?
 

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Jime: if you "click" on the pic, the red dots become zip ties that haven't been trimmed yet.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm currently modeling a mounting structure for the batteries. What is pictured is a temporary setup while I try to get this to work electrically in my driveway. The batteries are sitting on foam to raise them up off of the floor and hold them in their approximate future locations. The red dots are zip ties and the sleeves of spade connectors for the ptc strips. I'm probably going to discarde the ptc strips and use a resistor for simplicity. I have not followed a diagram as I am not aware of the existence of any diagram for an LTO conversion. The reason for the 60 cell setup is because I do not have access to a fooler board, nor bcm interceptor. I interpreted from Atheos' thread the he was successful in running the 60 cell configuration without those. I do have an acrylic sheet between the junction board and the dc-dc. I do hope to get some time this week to work on this conversion some more.
 

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I'll go back and read what Aethos said about his configurations, but I am relatively sure that you must wire in a "fooler" type voltage divider to make the BCM behave acceptably to make stuff work at all. The fooler is really pretty simple and can be constructed on a small piece of perf board with just a string of 10K ohm resistors. You might want to put a piece of heat shrink over your construction.

Peter??
 

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I don't think 2 1/2 packs (60 cells) is going to work very well. You need three packs to reach the proper voltage range
Atheos never really ran the 2 1/2 pack (60 cell) configuration, according to his thread.
Jim,
I'm running a 60 cell system with a stock BCM/MCM.


Prototypist, are you getting a similar voltage between taps, and what reading are you getting for your PTC strips assuming you didn't bypass that altogether with a resister.
 

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I'll go back and read what Aethos said about his configurations, but I am relatively sure that you must wire in a "fooler" type voltage divider to make the BCM behave acceptably to make stuff work at all. The fooler is really pretty simple and can be constructed on a small piece of perf board with just a string of 10K ohm resistors. You might want to put a piece of heat shrink over your construction.

Peter??
The fooler isn't necessary with exactly 60 (or 70, or 80) cells. I'm tapping every 6th cell.
 

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The fooler isn't necessary with exactly 60 (or 70, or 80) cells. I'm tapping every 6th cell.
Well, only the 60 cells is easily achievable with the LTO packs, and that voltage is too low to play well for a conversion, so YES a fooler is necessary.

Here is a link which can easily be found by a simple search "BCM fooler." Like I said, it is dirt simple to build. If someone can't build a BCM fooler, they have no business playing this game ;)

Later: Sorry, the link was bad. I'll find the right one.

OK, here is a link to to the BCM fooler from Peter's site:

BTW, those wire color codes are the wire codes from the stock harness which connects to the orange jumper board that is under the relay board, and the red & white are the power wires for the MCM (the single rear plug).

I guess you don't need any of this if you don't use the fooler circuit, but you still have to connect the BCM tap wires to something. The P1449 kinda hints to me that you don't have them properly connected. As I understand the Atheos configuration of 60 cells, then the tap wires would be connected to the pack neg, then every 6th cell, but don't quote me because I'm not a believer in the 60 cell configuration and haven't spent much time studying it. If you read the Atheos thread in its entirety, you will find 2 dissenters there, one rather strong and the other skeptical. Both of those guys are pretty savvy guys.

If you look at the Toshiba SCiB specifications, they have an operating range of 1.5-2.7V/Cell. Without BCM, it probably isn't very safe to operate them outside 2.0-2.5V range, which represents about 80% of the cell energy. From testing, if you read the LTO testing thread, there is very little energy below 2.0V anyway and cells are likely to diverge over time at below 2.0V or 120V for such a pack. You can probably stretch the top with relative safety to 2.6V operationally if you want a bit more on the top end. These are just observations from working with the cells for a year (with help.)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well, only the 60 cells is easily achievable with the LTO packs, and that voltage is too low to play well for a conversion, so YES a fooler is necessary.

Here is a link which can easily be found by a simple search "BCM fooler." Like I said, it is dirt simple to build. If someone can't build a BCM fooler, they have no business playing this game ;)

Thanks for this assessment, I removed the grid charger last night and blinked out the codes which pointed to a voltage tap issue and a bypass contactor problem. I tend to agree that I have hooked up the voltage tap wires incorrectly or one of them has come loose. It seems that the fooler will be a lot simpler. In your opinion, with only the fooler, could I hook up the full 72 cells?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Jim,
I'm running a 60 cell system with a stock BCM/MCM.


Prototypist, are you getting a similar voltage between taps, and what reading are you getting for your PTC strips assuming you didn't bypass that altogether with a resister.
I'm getting something like 24,5 ohms on the ptc strips which seems about right considering how hot it is here.
 

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Well, only the 60 cells is easily achievable with the LTO packs, and that voltage is too low to play well for a conversion, so YES a fooler is necessary.
well, I don't know what to tell you. My problem free daily driver tells me otherwise.
 

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But what is your battery capacity? You have packs which are capable of delivering 16.5 Ahr +/- a bit, even with the restricted 2.0-2.5V operating range. I'd venture a guess that you aren't getting anywhere near that amount. If my understanding of the native BCM functionality is correct, the 120V bottom end of the reduced range causes the BCM to throttle the IMA current if it even works.

I would remind you that you don't really have much testing time in the larger scheme of things.

I don't doubt that you are getting refreshing free operation at 150-156V , but you are operating just outside MY non managed protocol. You are doubtless subjecting the 60 cells to overvoltage outside the Toshiba specification when you have heavy regeneration.

BUT, if you are happy then it is all great and who am I to argue. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Well, only the 60 cells is easily achievable with the LTO packs, and that voltage is too low to play well for a conversion, so YES a fooler is necessary.

Here is a link which can easily be found by a simple search "BCM fooler." Like I said, it is dirt simple to build. If someone can't build a BCM fooler, they have no business playing this game ;)

Later: Sorry, the link was bad. I'll find the right one.

OK, here is a link to to the BCM fooler from Peter's site:

I've whipped up this bcmfooler real quick. I will give it a try tonight hopefully.
clintsfooler.JPG
 

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Sorry prototypist, I inadvertently deleted you post with the fooler picture while trying to quote it. I can't seem to back out of a delete like I could on the old system, or haven't figured that out. I just can't get the hang of this new format :(

Ah, it is still there. What a relief!

It is a good looking piece of work. Remember that the color code on the wires refers to the color codes in the tap harness attached to the left side orange battery plate. You will have to snip the wires right at the plate to wire the fooler.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Well the fooler test was inconclusive I think, because I am not seeing full pack voltage on the Junction board terminals. I disconnected the 12v battery to reset the system, and the IMA light went out and all battery bars on the display went away. The blink codes seemed to indicate a bypass contactor problem, and with the key in and turned to the on position, you can hear it clicking every second or so. Also, when the car is running, the red 12v battery light is on in the dash. Possibly heavily related, while assembling the LTO conversion saturday I was moving components around and the connector plug from the grid charger harness shorted on the positive terminal of one of the LTO batteries partially melting the nut with 122.8v, the batteries seem fine and all still have the same voltages. I may have damaged my DCDC converter again with that incident. I can test this by going through the bypass converter diagnosis, and also by reverting to the connections that I had before while running the car with no IMA.
 

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Possibly heavily related, while assembling the LTO conversion saturday I was moving components around and the connector plug from the grid charger harness shorted on the positive terminal of one of the LTO batteries partially melting the nut with 122.8v, the batteries seem fine and all still have the same voltages.
My jaw just dropped wide open.. Why on earth didn't you mention this before!

Drip feeding us half a story and expecting us to come up with solutions when we don't know vital info like this is incredibly frustrating and annoying.
I look like my avatar now, and am off to calm down for a week in a darkened room..
 

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My jaw just dropped wide open.. Why on earth didn't you mention this before!

Drip feeding us half a story and expecting us to come up with solutions when we don't know vital info like this is incredibly frustrating and annoying.
I look like my avatar now, and am off to calm down for a week in a darkened room..
I think I have found another major problem with how I have connected my leads on the junction board. It looks like I have the polarity wrong on two of them based on this handy graphic.http://99mpg.com/getimage.asp?id=/blog/batteries/howitiswired/&filename=insightpackinternalconnections.jpg&mode=0
Once I rectify that, then hopefully things will work a little better.
 

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I think I should probably bow out of this. I can't track what you are doing. I will say that you can verify and double check a lot of stuff with a simple voltmeter. For example, if you know what voltage you charged the cells to you can verify that by checking them with a voltmeter. Then you can multiply by 60, assuming you are still on that configuration, and get a target value for the total pack. Or, if you measure and mark the voltage of each subpack, you can double check your wiring that way with a meter. If you don't get the correct total pack voltage, then something in the mains circuit is wired wrong.

Correct, there is no schematic of the mains wiring that I am aware of. I think most folk who have worked with repairing the NiMH packs just kinda knew how the 4 junction board mains connectors were to be wired. The picture you found should help you verify what the 4 connectors get connected to. With a 5 subpack(60 cell) configuration, you can't have a 50/50 split at the switch, but you can get close enough for safety sake - I think.

You should go back and read the thread on the BCM Interceptor to familiarize yourself with it. Just put "BCM interceptor" in the search line at the top of the "popular" navigation point. If you can't find the search function, then say so. You need to do a lot of reading.

I don't really have any additional safety concerns with the 60 cell configuration if you want to use it. I think it may compromise the amount of energy which can be extracted from the pack by the stock BCM/MCM, but that is an issue for another day. From Atheos' information it does apparently work, so I wouldn't go so far ast to tell you not to do it if your development strategy puts it as the initial step - as you indicated.
 
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