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Honda Service bulletin 07-036, June, 15, 2007
(also applies to 03-05 Civic Hybrids)

A Honda Service Bulletin is not an admission of "guilt" or an acceptance of fault that defines it as warrantable. It is an informational publication written for service personel to disseminate the information and facilitate quality repairs. Need to see one :?: Build a business relationship with your local trusted Honda mechanic.

DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY CVT (automatic) Insight model.

02-06 Model years

A check engine light with codes P0420, 1420 or 2000 _may_ be caused by overly sensitive programming in the ECM (engine computer) and is correctable for the above models by an ECM "reflash". Your Honda dealer will have to _verify_ eligibility _before_ this repair can be considered for goodwill warranty coverage (coverage beyond the standard warranty)

Honda S.B. 07-038

On 00-01 Model years the ECM is not flashable and will have to be replaced to accomplish the programming update.



So if your failing to pass an emissions test or having any of the above codes you may be able to buy some more time with different programming. But ultimately a CAT (exhaust CATalytic converter) _will_ fail to the point of needed replacement.

Without seperate tailpipe emission testing and the _advanced_ know-how of an expereinced technician it will not be possible to guesstimate how much more CAT life is available or tell if its already past the point of no return. The bulletin does not address these "issues".

HTH! :)
 

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Thanks for the information!

I will go to the dealer asap and see what they are willing to do on my '01.

In the meantime, I still think the ultimate goal of a converter is to limit emission within the legal limit. As long as a converter can still meet this goal, it's a working converter. No matter what the computer says. Agree?
 

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I'd rather thank people here who keep complaining about this problem... :D

Insightful Trekker said:
Thats why a software update can be a "fix". :)
Thank you Honda :!: :)

HTH! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Since the Insight is only a _fraction_ of total Honda sales, and since here at IC we don't have any official affiliation with Honda "complaints" will only fall on deaf ears.

Honda has a "corporate culture" known for quality and customer satisfaction. Perfect :?: Nope. Fix all shortcomings :?: Nope.

Stop complaining and show some gratitude. :roll:
 

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"don't have any official affiliation" is supposed to give you more freedom to think.

Suppose you are the owner of Honda and there are so many so called ULEV cars you make can't even pass the emission tests. What would you feel? Ashamed? What would this do to your company image? What people would think about those non-ULEV cars you make?

It's a complete PR disaster! I am sure if you were the owner, you probably would want to do even more to protect your image.

I did show my "gratitude" when they replaced my main battery after more than 190K miles for free. :lol:
 

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You have over 190,000 miles on your car........Do you see my point...

You may have some parts that will need replacing eventually no matter who the manufacture is...If this fix that John made known to the forum gets you to pass another inspection, then why not go for it (if it delays you from having to replace parts at your expense)?

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner to whom the fix does not apply :lol:
 

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I will drive to the dealer after work today and show them John's posting. I will let your guys know the result. Thanks!
 

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I drove to the dealer and asked them to check this fix. After punching in my VIN, they told me I don't have any recall/required fix on my car anymore. They say they can check to see what is the problem with my car and go from there.

I will let them do that some time and will bring this up again when they ask me for $1500.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Read the first post in this thread again. Its NOT a recall. When you need the CAT it will _still_ be your nickle.

They are under _no_ obligation to "arm chair" diagnose your car. And you've already got all that's "worth" here.

<shaking head>

Just Failed Annual Inspection: Too many "NOT READY"
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=6610
 

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So still here is the funny part:

A 6 year's old Ultra Low Emission Vehicle from Honda can't even pass the emission test without a new CAT (for some people here, maybe it's their 2nd or 3rd already);

A 13 year's old "Nothing Even Close" to an ULEV from Ford (my Bronco) can still pass the emission test with its original CAT.

You still don't see anything wrong in this picture? Then it's really like the saying: Too much loyalty makes people blind.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Your lack of understanding about emissions and the huge difference between a 13yo car and an Insight is showing. #1; pre 95 model cars don't even monitor for CAT performance.

Google is your friend.

You have a possible lower cost option vs replacing the CAT.

Its your car and choice. Honda has already "told" you their not going to warranty such a failure @190,000+ miles.

Argument for argument's sake is not what IC is about. Further argument will be removed.
 

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Nobody is arguing that fact that in some states (and in some areas of the state) there was emissions testing performed by analyzing the exhaust using equipment at the instpection station going back into the early 80s...What we are talking about here in this post is the Insight (the car itself) using sensors to monitor the performance of the cat and to report a malfunction and store the code in the ECM (the controle module).

All of this is performed while driving and before you even get to the inspection station. While at the inspection station, they plug in a connector to the diagnostic port connector on the Insight (near the center console) and the equipment now interfaces iwth the car's computer to read any faults / malfunctions.... and this is how you pass or fail in many areas of the country.

This "fix" available from Honda on MT models that John pointed out will change the paramters of the program in the computer (firmware) to not "mislead" the indication of a cat failure....Something that a recent posting of a member may actually be experiencing right now. Instead of arguing about cat failures that are out of warranty and comparing apples and oranges to different emmisions levels in different eras in time and mandates. If the local dealership did not understand what you are talking about when mentioning this fix, take the service bulletin number with you next time and call it a service bulletin (not a recall).

I hope this puts us back on topic now.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

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If a pre 95 car can pass emission test, its CAT is performing or not? How can they do an emission test without knowing the CAT performance?

I only ask technical questions. It's the answer that you don't like.
 

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Ok, If your pre95 car passes the emmisions test, it means that it only passes the emmisons certification of a vehicle from that time period that it was certifed for when new. It doesn't mean that it passes today's more stingent levels of emissions testing. My CVT Insight is SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle). That is what it is certified for as an emmision level. If for some reason my cat fails at SULEV parameter levels, I can't say "Hey, why don't you just pass it at pre95 levels instead since it's bound to be better than that?"... I can't even say "Why can't you pass it at the ULEV level like the manual transmission model?" It just doesn't work that way.

These are emmissions mandates and if the car certifies at a certain level when new, it has to perform that way when old as well. The vehicles that you mention are not tested the same way and the same parameters and not used for both vehicles so it seems pointless in my opinion to use them as examples.

There has been plenty of info given for you to perhaps correct your problem without costing you a penny. I'm failing to understand why you wouldn't go back to the dealership and point out the service bulletin.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

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Suppose your ECM says your CAT malfunction and you can't pass the new type of emission test as a result. But if they do a real emission test on your car, your emission is actually lower than all legal limit. If this is the case, what do you think? You still think spend $1000 on a new CAT which you don't really need is a good solution? This is exactly what Honda calls "overly sensitive programming" in this service bulletin. It's not the CAT that malfunction, it is the programmer who let the computer tells you that.

It is the actual emission that really matters. Not some reported malfunctions. See my point this time?

joecvt said:
...

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

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I understand your current point. You believe what is important is if the car acutally passes the paramters limits given for the emission level of the vehicle being tested when an analyzer is placed into the exhaust pipe.
(Instead of reading the car's codes) It's too late for what you believe should be the correct way to test the car as it is already law in your state (and others). You can not change what is already mandated in your state in this forum so that's why I believe that it is pointless to argue about the correctness of the methods used.

However, there are people here that have posted possible solutions for you to try (and save you some cash at the same time) but you seem to want to argue that you shouldn't have to get the fix if they would just test it the way you believe it should be done. Try to convince the inspection station of that. My guess is that they will decline your request at the risk of losing their license. They have to follow the rules mandated as well. You may not like them but .... :(


The people that posted possible solutions were only trying to help you. You have to do your part too in order to help yourself.

That's my two cents worth....

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner
 

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I have to say I am partially understood this time. I was not trying to change the law, at least not here. I only want Honda do this for everybody affected for free. Because this is their programming mistake and the program bug fix warranty should last as long as their cars, especially concerning emission. Agree?

I can't believe I am the only one complaining here. Some people even on their 3rd CAT (a new one every couple of years) and they still think it's normal for a so called ULEV!
 

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I can't stand it. "WhyHonda" has made the point clear. The emissions specs. are diff., we understand that. If I'm clear here, the problem is; instead of a sniffer in the tailpipe with it's sending units reading (no matter what year specs.) we have to accept OBDIII readouts of the particular auto which are NOT independant of the manufacture. In fact, Honda has admitted the OBD system maybe too sensitive and is, in fact, telling something that isn't true.

If the emissions were directly read independant of Honda's OBD version, the car passes. Now, we may not be able to use that type of system anymore. That's our hard luck. Honda 'flashes' the OBD system and suddenly it saz the car is O.K. when the state checks it, GUESS who is at fault here. You got it, HONDA. It's called deception, it's a faulty computer system that does not met Federal Standards for the latest ON BOARD DIANOSTIC system (OBD) and seems it has not for several years. Does not matter about ULEV or SULEV or anything else. It's giving the wrong information for it's model year specs. Simple as that.

"WhyHonda" should insist the reprograming is performed. FREE. The Bulletin is an emission of fault and WILL hold up in court. 8) You can bet on it................... :!:
 

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RadioJim: I can hear the anger in your words but I think that you still mis-understood some statements made here (Or perhaps I did in the reading) but:

radiojim said:
If the emissions were directly read independant of Honda's OBD version, the car passes.
So far to my knowledge of reading this and another post by WhyHonda, there is no evidence that the car would passed if tested directly from the exhaust pipe. I believe it was always an "if" statement. He actually could have a bad CAT that needs replacement. But if so, you also have to notice that the car has over 195.000 miles on it and this is "his" first indication of a bad CAT.

radiojim said:
...GUESS who is at fault here. You got it, HONDA. It's called deception, it's a faulty computer system that does not met Federal Standards for the latest ON BOARD DIANOSTIC system (OBD)...
I'm not an expert on this but I imagine that each level of emissions has a range of values until you reach the next level. If the firmware was developed within middle of the road acceptable values for the sensors and then it was change to be at the lower end of the values within the same emissions level and if the result of the firmware developed (before and after) still meet Federal guidelines of OBDIII acceptable values, then wouldn't both firmware versions meet the criteria? I know that there is a lot of "ifs" in there but it is possible that either firmware is within spec and I won't say that it is not without knowing the detail. Also for deception, you are jumping to the conclusion that Honda knowingly putting out firmware that was not acceptable.

radiojim said:
"WhyHonda" should insist the reprograming is performed. FREE.
That is what I've been saying all along but also, no one said that it was a chargeable "fix"... Nowhere does it say that Honda wanted to charge him. In fact, I believe the local dealership did not understand what WhyHonda was really asking for (and I'm not sure how the question was phrased) when the reply was "there are no recalls for you VIN". If you ask about a recall for your car then that is different than asking to lookup a service bulletin and sees if it applies to the problem that is currently being experienced.

It was explained afterwards that this is not a recall, it is a fix if you fall into the criteria of what the service bulletin was put out there for. It is beyond my understanding as to why WhyHonda has not gone back with the service bulletin number and go from there.

JoeCVT - Just your average CVT owner (Glad that I have the CVT model :) in this post...)
 
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