bfivelover Said :
"Again, as I said, I really don't understand this. The hydrogen powers the car which powers the alternator which produces the electricity to produce the hydrogen from the water to power the car. In effect, you are running the car with water as the fuel. How are you not gaining anything? Isn't it possible that this guy in the Youtube video has figured out how to do it? Explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old"
ok I'll try to break it down...
Get comfy this will take a while
you start with 100 wh of energy stored as Hydrogen.
Step 1:------------------------------
Hydrogen burns to power the internal cumbustion engine ICE in the car.
Because the ICE is only about 30% efficient you only get about 30% of the chemical energy that was stored in the hydrogen converted to torque by the ICE.
so 100 wh in at 30% efficiency mean only 30 wh out as torque.
the rest of the energy is wasted as sound , heat , air flow , friction , etc....
Step 2:----------------------------
ICE torque turns alternator.
the alternator is between 80% and 90% efficient .... even if we say 90%
that means 30 wh of torque in at 90% conversion = 27 wh of electrical power out
again the rest is wasted as heat , sound , friction , etc....
Step 3:------------------------
Electrolysis of Watter to produce Hydrogen
Even if the guy invented the best platinum electrolizer in the world he is not better than 85% efficient.
so 27 wh of electrical power in at 85% efficiency = 23 wh of energy stored chemically as hydrogen out....
Step 4:----------------------------
Repeat step one , use hydrogen to power the ICE
so we input the now 23 wh of chemically stored energy from the hydrogen into the 30% efficient conversion of the ICE and get out = 7 wh of torque out of the ICE.
Step 5: ---------------------------
Repeat Step 2 use torque from ICE to power alternator
7 wh in at 90% conversion = 6 wh of electrical energy out.
Step 6: ---------------------------
Repeat step 3 use electricity from alternator to power electrolysis.
6 wh of electricity in at 85% miracle electrolyzer = 5 wh of energy stored chemically as hydrogen out....
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there you have it.... the cycle keeps losing energy... water does not bring with it any more energy so you are not adding energy by adding water.... thus water is not a fuel.... at best it is an additive.
END watter as Fuel
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Begin Water as Additive to a Gasoline fueled ICE:
now one of the claims is that the Hydrogen increases the efficiency of the ICE of gasoline.... which the higher flame speed of hydrogen has been proven to be able to do if you supply 5% to 8% of the BTUs of the engine as hydrogen so there is enough of the hydrogen to have its faster flame speed characterize the whole of the combustion process in the ICE....
if we assume the lower end at 5% BTUs.
1 kWh = about 3,414 BTU
1 horse power ( HP ) = about 746 wh
1 liter of gasoline has 8,890 wh = about 9kwh * 3,414 = 30,726 BTUs
5% of 30,726 BTUs = about 1,536 BTUs of H2 needed every 1 liter of Gasoline
electrolyzer to convert at 65% efficiency
which means 1,536 / 0.65 = about 2,363 BTUs of electrical power needed per 1 liter gas.
2,363 BTUs of electrical power at 90% efficient alternator
2,363 / 0.9 = about 2,626 BTUs of torque needed to the alternator per 1 liter of Gasoline.
if done properly the hydrogen can boost ICE by up to 30% at best.
(
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11 ... hance.html)
and
(
http://bioage.typepad.com/.shared/image ... limits.png)
so a 30% increase in a 30% efficient ICE engine conversion = a 40% efficient conversion.
40% of the chemical energy of the Gasoline gets converted to useful work.
so 30,726 BTU's in at 40% conversion = about 12,290 BTUs out as useful torque
12,290 BTU's out - 2,626 BTUs needed for hydrogen production = 9,664 BTUs out
originally 30,726 BTUs in at 30% conversion = about 9,218 BTUs out
9,664 - 9,218 = 446 BTU gain over original due to increased efficiency.
so about a 5% increase in the amount of energy from the gasoline fuel.
sounds great doesn't it.... so far....
back again to the 5% BTUs in the combustion chamber we need to make the hydrogen's faster flame speed work
At Atmospheric pressure the energy content of hydrogen is about 3 wh per liter ....
1 liter of gasoline has 8,890 wh.....
8,890 wh gasoline per liter / 3 wh Hydrogen per liter = 2,963 times more energy per liter in gasoline than hydrogen gas...
so for every 1 liter of gasoline we would need 2,963 liters of hydrogen gas to get the same BTUs of energy ....
we need 5% of the energy to come from Hydrogen not evenly between the two.
so 20 times more energy can come from the gasoline than the hydrogen.
2,963 / 20 = 148
so for every 1 part volume gasoline we need at least 148 parts volume hydrogen gas.
which means if we originally had 149 parts gasoline as fuel and we are displacing 148 parts for the hydrogen to get the improved fuel efficiency....
the Insight ICE has about 67 HP when run on gasoline
improved for fuel economy with hydrogen we are using 1/149 th as much gasoline volume per engine cycle.
67 HP improved by 30% efficiency increase = 87.1 HP
87.1 HP / 149 = about 0.58 HP from the remaining gasoline not offset by the hydrogen
5% of the 0.58 HP = 0.029 HP from the hydrogen
0.58 + 0.029 = 0.609 HP Insight.....
enjoy your 5% improved fuel economy with your Insight that no longer has enough power produced to move.
The only way around this problem is to reduce the % of BTUs of hydrogen that are needed....
Which can be done with modifications to the engine itself and by adding other additives to the fuel .... the simplest additive for Hydrogen heavy ICE is water and to implant platinum in the combustion chamber ... as hydrogen burns hotter than gasoline does ... you can reduce the combustion temperature by adding controlled amounts of water which will expand 1600 times in volume when it converts from liquid to gas.... and will make use of some of that extra heat that was being wasted... which will counter some of the power loss....
in the end at best you will end up with an insight that per engine cycle will produce about 1/10 the amount of power you had before.... but you will improve your efficiency and thus fuel economy by about 5% or so... when that 1/10 engine power is still enough to move the car up the hill.
Although not as drastic you can feel the same thing in the insights normal lean burn... you loose power but increase FE / MPG .... the same things happens with the hydrogen but is even more dramatic... and requires watter to be added in addition to the gasoline.
So in the end... I return to my original point that.... it can work when done right... but not without sacrifice.... in the way of cost in $ and HP.... and the insight already operates in a lean burn mode that does not need the consumer to remember to add a second fuel to their car to make the lean burn work.... it also does not require as much extra weight or cost of components.
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A good book to read about this subject is "Fuel from Water" I have the 11th edition by Michael A Peavey....
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