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Has anyone tried this Hydrostar or any of the so called hydrogen boosters? I'm thinking of trying ti on an old lawnmower. If that works then my John Deere and MAAAYYBEEE using it on NIIICE.

Any thoughts? It is an aluminum engine so it won't rust....
 

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link to a website with some info maybe? :)
 

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Send me $347 and I'll explain all about how these devices work! :lol:

There are two ways to look at these sorts of things. First, if it was so easy to improve mileage, why don't the manufacturers do it? Second, basic chemistry explains that it takes energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and that energy has to come from somewhere...

Bottom line: Snake oil.
 

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I'd have to aggree Doug. If it was so easy, then why wouldn't Honda have done it in the first place on the Insight. For a measly $500 surely they would have installed such a device. Sounds like it's too good to be true, and we all know what that means.
 

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The Concept:
The fuel economy gain they speak of comes from being able to drive the engine in a lean burning mode.... between 5% and 8% BTU of an ICE if hydrogen will allow the faster flame speed of the hydrogen to promote lean burn operation.... the range is due to what type of engine and what type of fuel and ambiant temperature and RPMs ect...ect...

useless to the Insight:
The hydrogen injection proccess is used as a cheaper method to get a ICE to operate in lean burn without stalling.... the Insight has a better more advance lean burn operation ability that does not require the injection of the faster burning hydrogen gas.... from the factory and as such... this would not show the same improvement... while possible to try to combine the two lean burn precesses this would at most give you a 0.1% improvement to MPG and remember what happens in the insight when you hit lean burn to your power... double dipping into lean burn continues to drop power faster than it increase ICE Efficiency... Efficiency does not mean more power.... becuase in lean burn you are burning less fuel per engine cycle.

Beware of scams:
the vast majority of these things are scams... remember to ask some simple questions... like if they are talking about using electrolysis to split watter into hydrogen to then use the hydrogen to boost the ICE efficiecy... that is a waste of electrons for a hybrid as most comercial electrolizers are about 60% efficient at converting watter to hydrogen... if we have the electrons on board the IMA motor is like 90% efficient and as such will make better use of that electrical power.... you never get something for nothing... know what the costs are not just in money but other down sides and if it sounds too good to be true then it most likely is....

True ICE hydrogen boosting and conversion:
If you really want to convert your Inisight or Other ICE to run on Hydrogen gas or to boost your Gasoline with Hydrogen then I would sooner recomend: going to http://www.knowledgepublications.com

http://www.knowledgepublications.com/hy ... ot_com.htm

the address above above should take you to the Hydrogen and multi-fuel Engine DVD and Book... I have it and it is all good stuff... and explains the pitsfalls and how to do the stuff yourself if you actually want to...

Remember Hydrogen is nice for allot of things ... it burns clean for instance.... it is very light for instance.....

but also remeber hydrogen sucks for allot of things... energy per pound for instance... ( 5 gallons of space of hydrogen might move an insight for about 25 to 30 miles ) compared to 5 gallons of space used for gasoline will move the same insight over 300 miles... also remember that this low energy density per volume comes in when you put it into your pistons ... in order to get 5% or more of the BTUs from Hydrogen so the higher flame speed cane help you ... you give up allot of the volume in the piston that gasoline could have been in...

my 2
bits..

ian
 

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snake oil aint cheap! :lol:
 

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Thanks for a good summary Ian. :D

I researched it myself a while back. I learned interesting facts about Brown's gass generators and their applications for welding, but didn't find much technical info about hydrogen for ICEs.
 

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the above listed link I gave... the same people sell a small ICE that has been converted to run on Hydrogen... but 5HP just won't cut it to move a car very well...

one more thing:
it is easest if you think of hydrogen as an energy carrier and not a fuel... hydrogen carries energy like batteries do... hydorgen does not occure naturally you have to spend energy to make it ... so unlike gasoline and other things that are fuels... hydrogen is just a method of storing / moveing energy... very much like batteries.

If you want to do hydrogen in your car... it is also much better idea to electrolise at home... and then put the H2 you get into either a carbon fiber high pressure gas tank... or if you have tons of money to spend then use metal hydrides to store the hydrogen....

OH....
One more thing:
All the methods of storing hydrogen will have less energy per pound than NiMH batteries will.... which in turn are less than Li-Ion Batteries... which are still less than gasoline.

my 2 bits.
 

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sorry... if you listen to the video you linked ...

it is not water powered either...

As the video says they use electrolysis to split the watter....

As soon as they say electrolysis ask yourself where are you getting the electricity from while driving your car around ??? and then remember ICE is 30% efficient and electrical motors are 80+% efficient...

If they say they use the electricity while parked... then that means they are storing and running the car on hydrogen not water.... and again hydrogen becomes an energy carrier or way of storing the power from the electricity for later use... again very much like a battery does.

even in water clocks water is not a fuel... you use up the metal anode and cathode you put into the water... the water is just used as an electrolyte.

Also I find it funny in the video they talked about the wonder fuel they made turning back to water after it burned... as if burning hydrogen has not been doing the exact same thing for decades.... Sorry I got a good laugh at how they tried to make it seem new when nothing they are doing is new.

my 2 bits.
 

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Obviously I don't understand this whole thing as you'll see from my question. Why can't an alternator supply the power for the electrolysis?
 

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An alternator (really it would have to be a DC supply, which would come from a generator or an alternator plus a rectifier) COULD supply the energy to do the hyrolysis. But what you're doing is splitting the water into oxygen and hydrogen, which takes a certain amount of energy, then later combining the hydrogen with oxygen (or something else), which gives back the same amount of energy. (Minus losses due to imperfect efficiency.) So you don't gain anything.

On the other hand, I think we pretty much agree that a big part of the Insight's performance is from lean burn mode operation, so if there were a way to improve the ability to run in that mode, it might be a good thing. Then the discussion changes to whether the Honda engineers thought of this as a possibility. Given the history of lean-burn technology (GM: Impossible, or worthless; Honda: Product), they probably did and rejected it.
 

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Again, as I said, I really don't understand this. The hydrogen powers the car which powers the alternator which produces the electricity to produce the hydrogen from the water to power the car. In effect, you are running the car with water as the fuel. How are you not gaining anything? Isn't it possible that this guy in the Youtube video has figured out how to do it? Explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old :?
 

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bfivelover Said :
"Again, as I said, I really don't understand this. The hydrogen powers the car which powers the alternator which produces the electricity to produce the hydrogen from the water to power the car. In effect, you are running the car with water as the fuel. How are you not gaining anything? Isn't it possible that this guy in the Youtube video has figured out how to do it? Explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old"

ok I'll try to break it down...

:)Get comfy this will take a while:)

you start with 100 wh of energy stored as Hydrogen.

Step 1:------------------------------
Hydrogen burns to power the internal cumbustion engine ICE in the car.

Because the ICE is only about 30% efficient you only get about 30% of the chemical energy that was stored in the hydrogen converted to torque by the ICE.

so 100 wh in at 30% efficiency mean only 30 wh out as torque.

the rest of the energy is wasted as sound , heat , air flow , friction , etc....

Step 2:----------------------------
ICE torque turns alternator.

the alternator is between 80% and 90% efficient .... even if we say 90%

that means 30 wh of torque in at 90% conversion = 27 wh of electrical power out

again the rest is wasted as heat , sound , friction , etc....

Step 3:------------------------
Electrolysis of Watter to produce Hydrogen

Even if the guy invented the best platinum electrolizer in the world he is not better than 85% efficient.

so 27 wh of electrical power in at 85% efficiency = 23 wh of energy stored chemically as hydrogen out....

Step 4:----------------------------
Repeat step one , use hydrogen to power the ICE

so we input the now 23 wh of chemically stored energy from the hydrogen into the 30% efficient conversion of the ICE and get out = 7 wh of torque out of the ICE.

Step 5: ---------------------------
Repeat Step 2 use torque from ICE to power alternator

7 wh in at 90% conversion = 6 wh of electrical energy out.

Step 6: ---------------------------
Repeat step 3 use electricity from alternator to power electrolysis.

6 wh of electricity in at 85% miracle electrolyzer = 5 wh of energy stored chemically as hydrogen out....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there you have it.... the cycle keeps losing energy... water does not bring with it any more energy so you are not adding energy by adding water.... thus water is not a fuel.... at best it is an additive.

END watter as Fuel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Begin Water as Additive to a Gasoline fueled ICE:

now one of the claims is that the Hydrogen increases the efficiency of the ICE of gasoline.... which the higher flame speed of hydrogen has been proven to be able to do if you supply 5% to 8% of the BTUs of the engine as hydrogen so there is enough of the hydrogen to have its faster flame speed characterize the whole of the combustion process in the ICE....

if we assume the lower end at 5% BTUs.

1 kWh = about 3,414 BTU

1 horse power ( HP ) = about 746 wh

1 liter of gasoline has 8,890 wh = about 9kwh * 3,414 = 30,726 BTUs

5% of 30,726 BTUs = about 1,536 BTUs of H2 needed every 1 liter of Gasoline

electrolyzer to convert at 65% efficiency
which means 1,536 / 0.65 = about 2,363 BTUs of electrical power needed per 1 liter gas.

2,363 BTUs of electrical power at 90% efficient alternator
2,363 / 0.9 = about 2,626 BTUs of torque needed to the alternator per 1 liter of Gasoline.

if done properly the hydrogen can boost ICE by up to 30% at best.
( http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11 ... hance.html)
and
(http://bioage.typepad.com/.shared/image ... limits.png)

so a 30% increase in a 30% efficient ICE engine conversion = a 40% efficient conversion.

40% of the chemical energy of the Gasoline gets converted to useful work.

so 30,726 BTU's in at 40% conversion = about 12,290 BTUs out as useful torque

12,290 BTU's out - 2,626 BTUs needed for hydrogen production = 9,664 BTUs out

originally 30,726 BTUs in at 30% conversion = about 9,218 BTUs out

9,664 - 9,218 = 446 BTU gain over original due to increased efficiency.

so about a 5% increase in the amount of energy from the gasoline fuel.

sounds great doesn't it.... so far....

back again to the 5% BTUs in the combustion chamber we need to make the hydrogen's faster flame speed work

At Atmospheric pressure the energy content of hydrogen is about 3 wh per liter ....
1 liter of gasoline has 8,890 wh.....

8,890 wh gasoline per liter / 3 wh Hydrogen per liter = 2,963 times more energy per liter in gasoline than hydrogen gas...

so for every 1 liter of gasoline we would need 2,963 liters of hydrogen gas to get the same BTUs of energy ....

we need 5% of the energy to come from Hydrogen not evenly between the two.

so 20 times more energy can come from the gasoline than the hydrogen.

2,963 / 20 = 148

so for every 1 part volume gasoline we need at least 148 parts volume hydrogen gas.

which means if we originally had 149 parts gasoline as fuel and we are displacing 148 parts for the hydrogen to get the improved fuel efficiency....

the Insight ICE has about 67 HP when run on gasoline

improved for fuel economy with hydrogen we are using 1/149 th as much gasoline volume per engine cycle.

67 HP improved by 30% efficiency increase = 87.1 HP

87.1 HP / 149 = about 0.58 HP from the remaining gasoline not offset by the hydrogen

5% of the 0.58 HP = 0.029 HP from the hydrogen

0.58 + 0.029 = 0.609 HP Insight.....

enjoy your 5% improved fuel economy with your Insight that no longer has enough power produced to move.

The only way around this problem is to reduce the % of BTUs of hydrogen that are needed....

Which can be done with modifications to the engine itself and by adding other additives to the fuel .... the simplest additive for Hydrogen heavy ICE is water and to implant platinum in the combustion chamber ... as hydrogen burns hotter than gasoline does ... you can reduce the combustion temperature by adding controlled amounts of water which will expand 1600 times in volume when it converts from liquid to gas.... and will make use of some of that extra heat that was being wasted... which will counter some of the power loss....

in the end at best you will end up with an insight that per engine cycle will produce about 1/10 the amount of power you had before.... but you will improve your efficiency and thus fuel economy by about 5% or so... when that 1/10 engine power is still enough to move the car up the hill.

Although not as drastic you can feel the same thing in the insights normal lean burn... you loose power but increase FE / MPG .... the same things happens with the hydrogen but is even more dramatic... and requires watter to be added in addition to the gasoline.

So in the end... I return to my original point that.... it can work when done right... but not without sacrifice.... in the way of cost in $ and HP.... and the insight already operates in a lean burn mode that does not need the consumer to remember to add a second fuel to their car to make the lean burn work.... it also does not require as much extra weight or cost of components.

--------------------

A good book to read about this subject is "Fuel from Water" I have the 11th edition by Michael A Peavey....

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they've had the technology to convert gas powered cars to water cars for many years. It's all about money greed I should say....
 

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No, it's about people who don't understand basic physical science. This "water powered engine" concept is not thermodynamically possible. (It MAY be possible to do something along these lines that involves changing the lean-burn operating region, but that's not what is being discussed here.)

When you split water into its component parts, it takes energy. When you combine the component parts, you get energy. Because of basic thermodyamics, you get less back than you put in in the first place.

I am frankly a bit suprized about this discussion.
 

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IamIan:

Not being a 5yr old ;) , I didn't totally understand your explanation, but let me see if I got the gist of it. If I understood correctly, and putting it simply, you are saying that with using water converted to hydrogen as fuel, you can't produce enough hydrogen to sustain the engine, unless there were a hydrogen fill-up station along your route. Would a hybrid of some kind be possible? Hydrogen/electric? I know these are probably dumb questions, but I barely made it through high school :?
 

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bfivelover said:
IamIan:

Not being a 5yr old ;) , I didn't totally understand your explanation, but let me see if I got the gist of it. If I understood correctly, and putting it simply, you are saying that with using water converted to hydrogen as fuel, you can't produce enough hydrogen to sustain the engine, unless there were a hydrogen fill-up station along your route. Would a hybrid of some kind be possible? Hydrogen/electric? I know these are probably dumb questions, but I barely made it through high school :?
no problem at all... the only dumb question is the one not asked....

you are correct the cycle does not produce sustainable energy because as others have said you can not have 100% efficiency at any of the energy conversion steps....

and as you said you could refuel with hydrogen , which can be used as an energy carrier .... but adding more water will not refuel / repower the car.... the car is getting its energy from the use of hydrogen or Electricity.... as such... it is not water powered or fueled .... but is hydrogen powered / hydrogen fueled car....

yes you could use a hydrogen / electric hybrid... but again the energy is coming from the electricity as in an EV ( electric Vehicle ) ... or from the hydrogen ... a chemically stored form of energy .... water can be used as an additive ... but water will not power the engine... and as such.. water is not a fuel.

let me know if you have any other questions.

my 2 bits.

ian
 

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A few years back I had a talk with a college graduate who had paid over 500 dollars for the "supressed" plans for a perpetual motion machine. He me to prototype it for him. As far as I could determine from the crude sketches it was a two pole electric motor. I declined.

I'm fascinated by the aluminum battery technology being developed by Europositron, but I don't understand the chemistry so I won't buy their stocks.

Likewise, I'd recommend caution here, or perhaps buying the book that Ian mentioned.
 
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