[ty]

Sanyo say they will (want to) cut in half of the cost of battery for hybrid car in 2009 according to this article.

Article - in Japanese
http://response.jp/issue/2005/1027/article75833_1.html
Pictures
http://response.jp/issue/2005/1027/arti ... 98710.html

A few points from article
- Sanyo currently (1st generation, 2005 model, 92kg) sell 20,000 units to Ford.
- They plan to introduce
2nd generation unit, 70kg in 2008
3rd generation uinte, 54kg in 2009

As you can see in the picture, the next generation of battery (on the right side) is Lithium-Ion, and considerably small. From the article, it is unclear that the 3rd generation (54 kg) meant this Lithium-Ion ones.

I don't know about Insight's battery unit weight. But if Honda will introduce Insight II, I would like to see a lighter unit like this in it, so it will futher reduce Insight overall weight!

I think Sanyo is Honda's partner on development of battery for hybrid car(whereas Toyota with Panasonic). I believe Sanyo is the world largest battery manufacure.

 

[Guillermo]

The Insight batteries weigh only 22 Kg.
The battery can drain in less then 3 or 4 minutes if full assist is used climbing a mountain for example.
Our battery capacity is so small compared to the Prius that can function on electric only during city driving.

 

[ty]

Thank you for the info!
I knew Insight battery is small and weight less than others but did not know that light.

So it will be about 10 kg weight reduction if the new battery technology applied into future Insight.

Do you know about Civic hybrid (and Prius) battery weight? Is it a lot larger than Insight's one?

I guess the Prius owners have to pay a lot to replace thier battery since they got larger one. Economy of size help the price down but still. I am just wonder how much it is.

 

[Dougie]

I still don't see why you can't just use regular rechargeable D batteries in the Insight...

 

[Rick]

Regulat off the shelf D size rechargable batteries will not move the kind of current you need, they also do not have the proper connector to handle that kind of current. On top of that the internal design is different.

That's why.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

To simplify Ricky's reply I'd say you'd smok'em in a matter of minutes :!: ( see Ricky's reply for the "technical" details)

 

[Rick]

What John said. :lol:

 

[Big D Insightman]

The D size batteries that the the Insight uses are only 1.2 volts a regular D size battery is 1.5 volt. I think the battery pack weight in the 2006 HCH has been reduced even though the current has been increased.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Back on topic (for me ):

There's an old post in here somewhare that announced Honda was going to open its previous exclusive dealings with Panasonic in regard to hybrid batteries. Sanyo was the other competitor.

Sounds like their (planning) to do their job :!:

 

[Resist]

The D size batteries that the the Insight uses are only 1.2 volts a regular D size battery is 1.5 volt.

All D size rechargable batteries are only 1.2 volts.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Good point :!:

Its not the size but the chemistry. D, C, A, AA, AAA and even AAAA are all the same voltage.

NiMH (Nickle Metal Hydride), & NiCD's (Nickle Cadmium) chemistry supply only 1.2v in single cell arrangements. Lead acid (under the hood), a typical car battery is 2.2v per cell hence the 6 cells.

Different chemistries in the future will be ... :?:

HTH!

 

[Dougie]

I hear what you're saying about regular D cells, but I don't buy it.

For example, consider the data sheet for a Sanyo NiMH D cell
http://sanyo.wslogic.com/pdf/pdfs/HR-DU.pdf

The capacity of these batteries is more than 6000 mAh, which is 6 Ah, or 360 Am (Ampere minutes). The Insight specs say 6.5 Ah, but I suspect that's using year 2000 battery technology. (These Sanyo ones are 9000 mAh.) Let's say that with a really aggressive discharge in an Insight you completely use up a 6 Ah battery in 10 minutes. (Which is unrealistically pessimistic, because the system doesn't fully charge or discharge the batteries under any conditions.) That would be a 36 Amp discharge rate.

But the data sheet shows several discharge rates, going all the way up to 40 Amps.

I think they would work just fine. Of course, they cost $16 each, which is almost $2000. http://www.batterystore.com/Sanyo/HRDU.htm

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Doubt you'd buy an IMA pack of their cells then either. The OEM Panasonics listed last time I checked (no available supplier) for around $900 for a set of 120.

http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_maru.html

Your Sanyo's and their price appears to reflect that these are _industrial_ quality cells. Not the "Radio Shack" consumer variety. With the correct high amperage interconnections looks like they may be a good replacement for the Insight's IMA batteries. Its their 40A discharge rate that concerns me. The Insight on IMA start is known to hit 80A :!: :shock:

Not sure what we're disagreeing about :?: :?

HTH!

 

[james]

"Its their 40A discharge rate that concerns me. The Insight on IMA start is known to hit 80A."

But with proper pack design that can be cut in half - two sets of cells in parallel. Or three, four...

 

[Dougie]

No disagreement, really. I'm just glad that Honda chose a standard cell so there's always a chance of just buying the replacement battery at the grocery store...unlike the oddball notebook computer batteries that are customized to each machine--and thus super expensive and unavailable when the model goes obsolete...

 

[Insightful Trekker]

"Its their 40A discharge rate that concerns me. The Insight on IMA start is known to hit 80A."

But with proper pack design that can be cut in half - two sets of cells in parallel. Or three, four...

And by doubling the number of cells you double the probability of a single cell failure draining the array. There is no perfect solution only trade-off's.

No disagreement, really. I'm just glad that Honda chose a standard cell so there's always a chance of just buying the replacement battery at the grocery store...unlike the oddball notebook computer batteries that are customized to each machine--and thus super expensive and unavailable when the model goes obsolete...

Well then a misunderstanding. There are _NO_ grocery store variety cells that will be up to the task.

The Insight _requires_ industrial quality cells. Maybe a bit cheaper since the case is standard and some of the manufacturing processes can utilize familar and presumeably lower cost machinery. Was one of my thoughts too before purchase. But that has proven to be somewhat of a misconception.

Anyways a whole lot cheaper than Toyota's prismatic cells. More cost effective :?: Only time will tell.

HTH!

[sp. edits]

 

[ty]

Toyota and Honda buy battery for thier hybrid from Panasonic EV Energy.
Toyota has big share in Panasonic EV Energy (As you know Panasonic is in Matushita group.) Maybe that's one big reason Honda is open for the other partner.

Plus Panasonic is one of Toyota's F1 team sponsors since thier F1 entry in 2002.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Makes sense to me.

 

[ty]

I did little research about hybrid vehicle battery development and Honda partnership with others.

I put a new topic here ->
Hybrid Vehicle Battery Development Partnership
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... php?t=3860

 

[Insightful Trekker]

PERFECT cross-link to a follow-up similar topic :!: