[kari]

I just got back from a really unsatisfactory dealer experience. (I know, me and my horrible dealer, right?)

anyway, long story short, I took it in for the 7500 mi. maintenance and they just gave me an oil change and a talking to: they said I "REALLY SHOULDN'T go so long between oil changes" and when I got my manual out they tried to convince me that I need to follow the severe driving conditions schedule. Some of their rationale was:

* around here it's stop and go traffic [[I have a highway commute against traffic. The only time I have stop and go is when I bring the car in to the dealer during rush hour.]]
* it's severe b/c of the weather conditions - b/c NJ varies in temperature between below 32 degF and above 90degF. [[um, you just described most of AMERICA.]]
* it's important to have the oil changed more frequently b/c of the SMOG. [[WHAT? it's a closed system! smog doesn't affect oil! maybe the AIR filter. but not oil!]]

I wanted to get your opinons. I don't know if there are many NJ drivers around, but if any of you DO follow the severe driving conditions schedule, could you tell me why?

I'm not sure how much of this is b/c they're unfamiliar with the car and frankly, how much of it is b/c I'm a girl. That smog comment especially got my goat. They were willing to CONCEDE that maybe 5K between oil changes was ok, but I really shouldn't push it to the 7500 mi. as recommended in the manual. How long do y'all go between oil changes?


edited to add: I put 6900 miles on in roughly 3 months with just normal commuting. If I followed the severe schedule I'd be in every 1 1/2 months!

 

[Fred]

Kari;

There is another post here at Insightcentral which suggest ... change your oil TWICE as often as recommended by your owners manual.

I've long ago been advised that with regard to a new engine, right after the break in period is reached, drain and replace the original oil. This gets rid of any and all fine metal particles left over from manufacturing, which may still be circulating in the lubrication/cooling system.

In the case of the Insight there is a specific oil mentioned in your owners manual. That oil is NOT unique to Honda motor cars and as I understand it, it is readily available - don't accept any substitutes. Those folks at Honda know what they're talking about when it comes to their vehicles.

And for what it may be worth to you, seventy five hundred (7,500) miles between oil changes is "pushing it" and isn't recommended. Most American cars tell you (or at least they did) change the oil AND the oil filter every six thousand miles; when you change the oil in your Insight, at the same time, change the oil filter to. It'll keep you and the little beastie a lot happier!

Fred

I just got back from a really unsatisfactory dealer experience. (I know, me and my horrible dealer, right?)

anyway, long story short, I took it in for the 7500 mi. maintenance and they just gave me an oil change and a talking to: they said I "REALLY SHOULDN'T go so long between oil changes" and when I got my manual out they tried to convince me that I need to follow the severe driving conditions schedule. Some of their rationale was:

* around here it's stop and go traffic [[I have a highway commute against traffic. The only time I have stop and go is when I bring the car in to the dealer during rush hour.]]
* it's severe b/c of the weather conditions - b/c NJ varies in temperature between below 32 degF and above 90degF. [[um, you just described most of AMERICA.]]


* it's important to have the oil changed more frequently b/c of the SMOG. [[WHAT? it's a closed system! smog doesn't affect oil! maybe the AIR filter. but not oil!]]

I wanted to get your opinons. I don't know if there are many NJ drivers around, but if any of you DO follow the severe driving conditions schedule, could you tell me why?

I'm not sure how much of this is b/c they're unfamiliar with the car and frankly, how much of it is b/c I'm a girl. That smog comment especially got my goat. They were willing to CONCEDE that maybe 5K between oil changes was ok, but I really shouldn't push it to the 7500 mi. as recommended in the manual. How long do y'all go between oil changes?


edited to add: I put 6900 miles on in roughly 3 months with just normal commuting. If I followed the severe schedule I'd be in every 1 1/2 months!

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Complex question kari. And one such that there are few absolutes. You'll likely get the full breadth of opinions in here. Therefore all of the following is IMO:

Its an "issues" of cost vs. benefit. Yes, more frequent maintenance (follow the "severe" schedule in the owners manual) has _long term_ benefits such as overall reduced engine wear. But it's a "payback" you won't see 'til the car is many years older. And it applies to all the maintenance items. Also as a car gets older the inspections become more important in that "a stitch in time saves nine, Benjamin Franklin". If you "catch" many problems early enough consequential damage ($$$) can be reduced.

Smog is another _long term_ issue in that an engine with less "wear" (internal parts) will under some conditions pollute less. Frequent oil changes is the easiest solution to the internal wear issue. However, its defining the "sweet spot" for the interval that is the never ending debate.

Your driving pattern doesn't place you clearly in the "severe" category. IMO the 5K interval would be a good compromise.

It simply reads like you got a hard sell. The reality is for some customers their right, others their not. There are too many factors to state in absolute terms.

For me I follow the 5K interval _and_ use a 100% synthetic. Probably "overkill" but the consequences of underkill are more expensive.

HTH!

 

[Billy]

Hi Kari; my opinion, after owning MANY cars and 3 Insights, is that you might consider cutting the 7500 miles in half. I change my oil every 3750 miles. The car only takes 2.6 qts of oil.

I would love to look under you car, and make sure your dealer put the under engine covers on exactly right, with all the bolts in the right place. The truth is, quick-lube places and even Honda dealers often get it wrong.

If you are not going to change the oil yourself every time, here is my strong suggestion: Wherever you choose to take your car for service, insist on the SAME mechanic (technician) every time. Meet him, shake his hand, keep in contact. Then he will be accountable, and will know you expect a little extra. Maybe even give him a gift certificate for dinner or something. But have him work on your car every time.

I always change my own oil, mainly because I enjoy taking lots of extra time and cleaning under there. Billy.....

 

[kari]

And for what it may be worth to you, seventy five hundred (7,500) miles between oil changes is "pushing it" and isn't recommended.

With the insight 7500 *is* recommended, at least in the manual. I was shocked and read the darn thing at least 3x to make sure. I'm not sure what the disconnect is between HONDA and their honda-trained technicians that would cause such a big difference in opinion, you know? That's why I start to dig in my heels with the dealership.

I've long ago been advised that with regard to a new engine, right after the break in period is reached, drain and replace the original oil. This gets rid of any and all fine metal particles left over from manufacturing, which may still be circulating in the lubrication/cooling system.

There was a post recently advising AGAINST changing the oil so soon after break-in - which I found useful when some friends took me to task for not changing the oil as soon as I could.
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/vie ... 2219#42219

 

[kari]

Its an "issues" of cost vs. benefit. Yes, more frequent maintenance (follow the "severe" schedule in the owners manual) has _long term_ benefits such as overall reduced engine wear. But it's a "payback" you won't see 'til the car is many years older. And it applies to all the maintenance items. Also as a car gets older the inspections become more important in that "a stitch in time saves nine, Benjamin Franklin". If you "catch" many problems early enough consequential damage ($$$) can be reduced.

Thanks for your comments. I am a long term car owner kind of girl (I reluctantly gave up driving my 93 civic when I got the insight - I was sure there was a few more years of use left in it!), and DO want this car to last as long as I can. Which is why I'm being so careful about following rules, etc. I'll compromise with the 5K, that's probably a safe bet.

I would love to look under you car, and make sure your dealer put the under engine covers on exactly right, with all the bolts in the right place. The truth is, quick-lube places and even Honda dealers often get it wrong.

Billy, that's a great point. At this point, for all I know they're using the wrong oil! I am not impressed with their ability to recognize that this car is different from the standard gas-only cars they work on in their shop. Reading other drivers horror stories about incorrect spark plug placement, for example, has got me on edge.

 

[jbrasure]

For what it's worth, I change the oil on all of my cars at 7500 mile intervals. I've been doing that for 20 years and never once had a problem.

 

[trunkout]

ok

pretty much since syn was available I have used full syn every 10k...

I live in Missouri....I drive 47 miles ONE way to work....

Four diff cars.....all had over 100k before sold with NO problems....

Do some research.....3k per change is what OPEC WANTS you to do....of course....

Oil is a scam IMHO......syn doesn't burn....viscosity is almost non-exsistant....

Mobil 1 0W-20 is what I use now....and I have had TWO dealerships tell me my internals look perfect.....with 75k miles on 10k changes.....

Do a google search on Amsoil...read about the myths....

**jumps down off soapbox*

:twisted:

 

[kari]

Re: ok

I called honda to find out what they mean by "severe driving conditions" and it's true, the weather variance DOES make it severe. I asked they guy if that meant that most of america counted as severe driving, and he confirmed that. I then suggested that they start to use zone maps (like guides for planting seeds) in the manual instead of the very vague language they have.

He did say that it was definately dependent on individual seasons, and this mild winter probably didn't count as severe.


oh - and he did say that with the first oil change it was better to wait to 7500 for the change b/c of the break-in fluid in the oil.

syn doesn't burn....viscosity is almost non-exsistant....

I'm glad you reminded me of this, burning oil was one of their arguements for more frequent oil changes. I had said "I check the oil regularly, I would know if it got low" but this would have been a better response!

 

[Fred]

Kari;

You're right, 7,500 miles is what is recommended in the Honda Insight Owners Manual.

On the 95 Ford I had, the owners manual said change the oil every 6,000 miles. I elected to change it every 5,000. The "rounding downward" figure was easy to remember; I never was all that great at math.

As for the "Silver Bullet" after that break in period (600 miles/1,000 km) is reached, the oil will be changed every 5,000 miles - at a maximum. Dusty roads, Winter driving, a lot of stop and go driving, such driving conditions suggest an even shorter interval between oil changes; Oil filter and air Filter as well.

One can of course become excessive regarding oil changes; too frequently or go too long a time between changes. So, if you're going to err in this regard, might was well do it on the safe side - again without becoming excessive. This little car doesn't have that great an oil capacity anyway. So why not change that oil, the oil filter and the air filter every 5,000 miles?

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[trunkout]

So why not change that oil, the oil filter and the air filter every 5,000 miles?

Fred

cuz I like money.....

 

[kapps]

I'll agree with the 7500 mile oil change. That's about what we do in the Insight with Mobil 1 0w-20. One of my concerns is the small size of the oil filter and how long it can opperate efficiently. In our MINI, 10k-20k(!) mile service intervals are the norm. I change it in the 8-10k mile range (also Mobil 1).

 

[goat961]

i go about every 5000.... but that's 90% because i'm too lazy to count by 3's or 7's.

if you're having trouble with your dealer perhaps it's time for a new dealer?

i personally have had pretty good experiences at sussex honda (newton, nj). in fact, one of the employees has an insight so at least somebody there is familiar w/ it. they're still a dealership though.

 

[trunkout]

well

should we get into the fact that our engines have fuel injection disable when coasting....or the engine stop at lights....or low friction internals...

all that may bring up the discussion of how many ACTUAL miles our odometer is reading....

open the flood gates....

:twisted:

 

[Fred]

As for liking money, that makes two of us!

With the above in mind, consider the following ...

I for one would rather pay out a little 'insurance' every five thousand miles or so, as opposed to a lump sum - when I least expect and/or need it.

With that in mind, and since I like to do my own work on my vechicles when I can, if you're like me, we're both looking now for several new oil filters, several new air filters, and several quarts of oil. At this point I don't need any of these items, so price wise I can afford to be fussy - real fussy. And experience has repeatedly shown me that items you need - really got to have - are usually very expensive.

Fred

So why not change that oil, the oil filter and the air filter every 5,000 miles?

Fred

cuz I like money.....

 

[ElectricTroy]

* around here it's stop and go traffic [[I have a highway commute against traffic. The only time I have stop and go is when I bring the car in to the dealer during rush hour.]]
* it's severe b/c of the weather conditions - b/c NJ varies in temperature between below 32 degF and above 90degF. [[um, you just described most of AMERICA.]]
* it's important to have the oil changed more frequently b/c of the SMOG. [[WHAT? it's a closed system! smog doesn't affect oil! maybe the AIR filter. but not oil!]]

Listen to the >college-educated< ENGINEERS who wrote the book, not the high school dropouts at a Stealership (or phone center) who just want to double their oil-change profit.

If you don't drive in the severe conditions described in the book, then you don't need to follow the severe schedule. Continue doing 7000-7500 mile oil changes. You drive 99% highway miles, in a moderate climate (below 100 and above 0), and a dust-free environment. That's "normal" usage & doesn't tax the engine at all.


[As for temperature variation, it's irrelevant. An engine operates at a constant 170 degrees, no matter what the external temperature. The only time it matters is (1) if it's severely cold... like Alaska cold. Or (2) if there's a potential for overheating... like the Arizona desert. Otherwise, a car in New Jersey runs at a constant 170 degrees whether it's summer or winter. The external Jersey temperature matters not.]



BTW I change my oil at 10,000. The warranty's expired, so I can extend my drains to 10,000. Oil analysis shows this is okay (the oil is still near-new).

troy

 

[Insightful Trekker]

[As for temperature variation, it's irrelevant. An engine operates at a constant 170 degrees, no matter what the external temperature. The only time it matters is (1) if it's severely cold... like Alaska cold. Or (2) if there's a potential for overheating... like the Arizona desert. Otherwise, a car in New Jersey runs at a constant 170 degrees whether it's summer or winter. The external Jersey temperature matters not.]

Sigh, here come the absolutes :|

Well Troy,

I guess you don't understand the concepts of precision tolerances and thermal expansion. Nor how an engine thermostat works.

Until the engine is up to operating temp its internal tolerances are "loose" (contraction with cold). This allows for _additional_ compression blow-by (fuel and combustion by-products that leak past the piston rings). Yup 90+% by weight is water and simply "boils-off" with a hot engine. If your reading carefully you recognize that since an engine rarely gets above 212F (100C) this water doesn't "actually" boil off. Its the additional heat, oil circulation, crankcase ventilation (PCV) and sufficient time at operating temperature that eventually accomplishes the separation. And there are fractions of corrosive acids and other diluting HC's that damage the oil which won't separate. Want 25K oil change intervals with an engine that will look like new inside at 250K :?: Switch to CNG or propane.

The Insight's thermostat is set for 194F (90C) Unless its cold enough outside and the engine is operated at a low enough RPM this will be its temperature (+-). An Insight operating with a 170F temp will be in cold enrichment (slightly) with a correspondingly low MPG.

 

[ElectricTroy]

I was trying to answer Kari's question w/o confusing her.

Your answer is merely confusing & not helpful.

My answer tells her what the engineers say in the Owner's Manual (New Jersey driving, 99% highway, is NOT severe). My answer helps Kari. Which is the point, is it not?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Absolutes often oversimplify. Oversimplification, when reality exceeds it causes confusion. Confusion results from a lack of understanding. Understanding eliminates confusion.

Confusion comes from absolutes, but not absolutely.

HTH!

 

[ElectricTroy]

Did you go to the George Lucas school of script-writing?

:lol: