[WhyHonda]

I know there have been lots of discussions here about the CATALYTIC CONVERTER, but still I have some questions to ask your experts here:

1. Is that true Insight doesn't even need a CATALYTIC CONVERTER to pass even the most strict CA emission test?

2. If #1 is true, then the only reason Honda put a CATALYTIC CONVERTER on Insight is because of the lean burn, which creates too much NOx that may be over the emission limit but won't be detected at the test, right?

3. Is that true only the manual transmission version of Insight has lean burn? If it's true and #2 is true, then the auto transmission Insight doesn't even need a CATALYTIC CONVERTER, right?

4. If #3 is true, then why the CATALYTIC CONVERTER for the auto transmission one is more expensive than the manual one?
(CATALYTIC CONVERTER, Insight, Manual Trans 00-01 $592.04
CATALYTIC CONVERTER, Insight, Auto Trans 01-05 $1,245.20, at Mesa)

5. How many CATALYTIC CONVERTERs are on Insight? If I have two (2) P0420 codes (both for Bank 1) and nothing else, does it mean I need both front (engine) convertor and the exhaust convertor?

6. If I only need the exhaust converter, and can buy it plus

1 donut gasket

2 flexible joint bolts

2 flexible springs

all these for $299, do you think it's a good price? We are talking about all brand new, genuine Honda parts, of course (Imgage URL as follows).

Thanks!

 

[Insightful Trekker]

1) False

2) False

3a) True b)False

4) Looks like a pricing "error". IIRC there are differences 00-01 and mid 02 and later in the parts.

5) The two are designed to be replaced as a pair.

 

[WhyHonda]

I got the information from http://arstechnica.com/reviews/3q00/hon ... ght-1.html

Since it mentioned a 1973 Civic CVCC passed California's emission standards without a catalytic converter, I just assumed a 2000 Insight should do better. I may be wrong, but love to see some test results. If you call it false, I guess you have seen the results somewhere? Could you share with us? I'd love to see what category it fails because I can only imagine NOx, but without lean burn (I don't know if they can test lean burn during inspection), there is not much NOx created.

"The two are designed to be replaced as a pair". Yes, and you can also buy just the front (engine) part. But you can't buy the exhaust part alone (it has to come in a whole kit). That's why I am thinking buying this exhaust part for $300 and then order the front part (I don't know how much yet) later. Hopefully I can cut the total cost by half in doing so.

Thanks!

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Since it mentioned a 1973 Civic CVCC passed California's emission standards without a catalytic converter, I just assumed a 2000 Insight should do better.

:lol:

A 73 Civic couldn't pass _todays_ emissions standards even with a CAT :!:

Go get an MS in Engineering and then work in the automotive industry for a few years, then your have the requisite knowledge to answer your own question. (Read the question seems simple, the complete answer is not)

Irregardless, you won't "pass" emissions in _any_ emissions "modified" car. And as such discussions of "how-to" or the consequences of modifing emissions are off-topic to these forums and will be removed.

 

[WhyHonda]

:lol: "Go get an MS in Engineering and then work in the automotive industry for a few years, then your have the requisite knowledge to answer your own question"? :lol: So there is no need for this forum and no need to come here? If you have done that and still can't answer the question, then what is the sense for other people to do the same?

"modifing emissions"? Relax, maybe that's what in your mind, but definitely not in mine. I only want to figure out why the catalytic converter for an auto Insight is more expensive than that for a manual one and what makes Insight converter special. If you think it's a "pricing error" from Mesa, you should tell them about it before more people get ripped off.

"off-topic to these forums and will be removed" If you can't answer a question, just remove it. I admire your simplicity. Then what "an MS in Engineering" is for?

"Read the question seems simple, the complete answer is not"? Isn't this the whole reason why we have this forum so people can answer each other's questions? I don't know why you keep undermining the value of this forum.

BTW, please don't try to use education level to scare people away. Because some people like me may just have even higher level than you can imagine.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

First off please review the rules. Specifically #12. Full quoting in immediate reply only adds to the length of the read for all members.

Posts above edited to remove the entire quote of the previous post.


Replied in-line

:lol: "Go get an MS in Engineering and then work in the automotive industry for a few years, then your have the requisite knowledge to answer your own question"? :lol: So there is no need for this forum and no need to come here? If you have done that and still can't answer the question, then what is the sense for other people to do the same?

You would be wise to remember that no one here "owes" you an answer. Its simply by members - for members. Especially with technology there is no higher educational level that is sufficient to know all. We come here to share our common Insight experiences. And the sum of the whole can be greater than any one.

Higher education is not a requirement for participation, but when a member asks a question in such a way as to reveal a lack of understanding of what they are asking then its a prerequisite.

Asking indirect questions will often put-off knowledgeable members (see your posted clarification and my reply below).

"modifing emissions"? Relax, maybe that's what in your mind, but definitely not in mine. [edit:add bold emphasis]I only want to figure out why the catalytic converter for an auto Insight is more expensive than that for a manual one and what makes Insight converter special. If you think it's a "pricing error" from Mesa, you should tell them about it before more people get ripped off.

Ah Ha :!: The "true" question. Why not ask that to begin with :?: But AFAIK the answer will be just as elusive. And while its "interesting" armchair information, how will such benefit the group :?: You won't be able to "pass" emissions testing with a modified CAT _even if_ you are ultimately satisfied with all the other _potential_ complications and consequences.

My "pricing" error was in relation to he availability of the second CAT separately. I'd say its available for replacement in case of physical damage. It hangs lower and is more exposed to salt and road hazards. Otherwise replacement is required as a pair. The converse argument will not be as easily answered. Maybe someone else will nibble at the bait.

"off-topic to these forums and will be removed" If you can't answer a question, just remove it. I admire your simplicity. Then what "an MS in Engineering" is for?
"Read the question seems simple, the complete answer is not"? Isn't this the whole reason why we have this forum so people can answer each other's questions? I don't know why you keep undermining the value of this forum.

Sarcasm :?: Not the tone I'd take when wanting something _free_ from another.

BTW, please don't try to use education level to scare people away. Because some people like me may just have even higher level than you can imagine.

No scare intended. :? As with all things technical there is no "higher" _complete_ educational level. However, the question as you chose to initially form it suggests a lack of appreciation for its complexity, the huge effort that can be required in reply, and the lack of benefit in enumerating all the reasons why since the answers are purely academic in application.

Simply stated there are differences that make the interchangeability incompatible with emissions requirements. But you already knew that. :|

"Could" it be done, and "pass" emissions :?: IMO not at a price competitive point with the additional modifications and certifications that will be required.

Sincerely,

 

[WhyHonda]

"You would be wise to remember that no one here "owes" you an answer"? Yes, you only owe me "Sarcasm".

"Not the tone I'd take when wanting something _free_ from another"? Not the tone either if you want free "Sarcasm" from others.

Isn't this all Internet about? Don't pretend you didn't know this.

"And while its "interesting" armchair information, how will such benefit the group"? Since you still didn't get it, I have to spell it out loud this time:

The complicated Insight catalytic converter is designed to convert the extra NOx from lean burn. Since the CVT version of the Insight doesn't have lean burn capacity, it doesn't need this kind of converter. A regular converter found on most cars today will do the job. We are talking about 10 times price difference here ($200 ver. $2000). Honda not only put such a complicated, unnecessary part on the CVT version of the Insight, they also over charge you for its replacement. That's why I suggest all CVT owners here take actions against Honda, especially those who are on their second or even third converters. You should get those thousands of dollars hard earned money (mile by mile, gallon by gallon) back from Honda.

Now you see how this will benefit the group?

Next time before you start your "Sarcasm", please at least give other people the benefit of doubt. They may just know something you don't. Also please don't try to reinforce the rules whenever you feel you are losing the game. It's not good behavior from a capable sportsman. Remember, rules are made to be broken. That's how human evolve.
:idea:

............

 

[Insightful Trekker]

<sigh>

No game on my end. And as far as IC is concerned the "rules" are here to help make this place what it now is. Perfect :?: Never.

Sorry the answer isn't what you wanted to hear. But if you can pull it off the more power to ya :!:

This _appears_ to be a _looong_ running theme for WhyHonda. Anyone interested can read his posting history.

3 years now with CAT & Clutch questions / problems :!: :?: :?

 

[WhyHonda]

If you can't find anything wrong with him now, try to dig some dirt from his history. Sound familiar? Are you in politics now? You should, you are a natural. :idea: :lol:

.....................................................................

This _appears_ to be a _looong_ running theme for WhyHonda. Anyone interested can read his posting history.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Quotes out of context can "say" almost anything you want them to.

Read my reply and the emoticon(s) :? <- confused

This thread is now wayyy off-topic to Insight related discussions. And since you've stated; "Remember, rules are made to be broken." 2 posts above I don't see that any further discussion on these points in PM will be helpful.

Your question was answered. Maybe you can find a more cost effective substute that will pass an emissions inspection / test. If so feel free to share your results in a new thread.

With the problems to solve and regulations required AFAIK there isn't one. And for the potential cost difference I'm _OPEN_ to being proven wrong.

But continued "discussion" of personal differences or rule violations on the forums is off topic and future posts of such will be deleted. See the rules. :|

Sincerely,