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Discussion Starter #1
Audi will have in 2017 cars! There is a couple (at least) companies making electric turbochargers! Yes turbo's! The one is using a emectric motir to spin it up for no lag and ability to se larger (slower spooling) turbo but eleminate lag (like a SC)!
AND this is what is so exciting to me (and should be for other hybrid drivers!)

The electric motor is ALSO A GENERATOR! When not making the turbo spin, and is actually "idling" from exhaust gas passing through it, it can be "excited" to make electricity from exhaust gases passing through its turbine!

This of course, can be inverted into power at correct voltage and amperages for our IMA batteries!! SO at cruise, even it can generate some power from wasted gas movement and heat being wasted!! is now power for assist..and if enough, phev action, I'm sure some of our geniuses on here will supply what is needed to utilize thie power fully..maybe even a C&C type activation when going down hills, decelerating, etc. The potential for recature is really staggering amounts of energy! Aren't we at about only 40% efficiency using the gasolines potentials at present? (experts in this pls chime in here:)..

ANyway a game changer for sure, for me..I'm going to TCharge mine ASAP I get a good tuning solution I am confident/comfortable with and the needed parts, of course.

Interest in a Group Buy anyone? We have time, its going to be a year at least, I'm thinking & reading) before they are ready for sale...I'll try to see about being a "beta tester" and even as a group, IF enough interested people on here...

Mike , EQ, Peter, any of you guys see any issues that would make this unfeasable? potential problems? (besides turboing a factory NA car of course)!

WIllie, will it fit? The electric engine will make the turbo larger/longer. I haven't seen a pic/drawing of it yet, but the description described it well, and apparently its got an extended shaft with the electric motor clutched on the shaft so it can spin w/o drag when cruising and not needing or wanting drag on the turbine to restrict ex gases if power isn't desired at that time.

That feature, it seems, may not really be necessary, especially if using a larger battery and PHEV and or lots of assist and electricity. ALso depends on how bad the exhaust restriction is and how much it affects power output from gas burning.. Maybe have a non clutched one for small tight fitment (reduced complexity and cost also:)!
Link to what I found below:

Electric Turbochargers Forecast To Boom For Gas-Mileage Gains

Enjoy, everyone!
 

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Not trying to be a dick. I have no tolerance for claims of "game changing" technologies that are riddled with inconsistencies.

Based on my read of the article, this is a slight game modifier at best.

Conceptual flaws:

1) Driven by electricity. Where does this electricity come from? It's not free. It ultimately comes from the gas tank.

2) As evidenced by the very concept of turbo lag, and the pitiful exhaust force of 15 hp, I expect the energy available to generate electricity in normal cruise is VERY limited.

3) Does the added weight and complexity vs. the benefits actually result in a net positive?
 

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There was a fellow in Fla. that was installing "electric turbos" a long while back. I believe it required an extra battery to operate the turbo because of the demanded electrical load on the engines normal battery. Haven't seen much about it since..

HTH
Willie
 

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Not trying to be a dick. I have no tolerance for claims of "game changing" technologies that are riddled with inconsistencies.

Based on my read of the article, this is a slight game modifier at best.

Conceptual flaws:

1) Driven by electricity. Where does this electricity come from? It's not free. It ultimately comes from the gas tank.

The Volvo car has 48 volts to drive the new turbo.

2) As evidenced by the very concept of turbo lag, and the pitiful exhaust force of 15 hp, I expect the energy available to generate electricity in normal cruise is VERY limited.

3) Does the added weight and complexity vs. the benefits actually result in a net positive?
I'm with you on this one.

Most turbos spin around 100,000 rpm. The electric motor probably needs step up gearing to do that. When run as a generator the gearing is going to cause a lot of efficiency loss when driving the [now] generator.

Here's the Volvo way of using the new turbocharger from: Volvo Bets Its Future on Small, Turbocharged Engines | WIRED

"We’ve seen plenty of twin-turbos before. Volvo’s innovation is adding a third—third!—turbo. But this one doesn’t charge the engine. It charges the other turbos. It’s electric, hence the name “e-booster,” and sends air into the two conventional turbos to improve their performance below 3,300 RPM, filling out the torque curve and eliminating that pesky lag problem.

It’s very clever, but it’s just the start. Volvo’s also created a 48-volt electrical system, instead of the conventional 12-volt, to drive that e-turbo. The beefier electric system also will allow the automaker to improve electric power steering systems and stop/start technology, but that big step forward will take five to 10 years to fully introduce. That’s why the three—three!—turbo engine is still a concept."

Fill in "performance below 3300 rpm", that doesn't sound like the blower is going to run all the time. A supercharger could do that without the complexity.

This idea isn't new. I once saw an old Studebaker Golden Hawk with a normal 12 volt squirrel cage blower stacked on top of the carburetor with bailing wire in a used car lot [just a concept]. I just looked at that thing and laughed. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #5
No mor patience for Fools.

Or dick suckers.. Willie. Don't drool to me in posts, then act stupid from this ignorant idiot..
 

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F1 race cars do a form of this now.
The turbo generates power stores it and then spools up the turbo at low RPM. Also uses the turbo in conventional mode once up to RPM.
These F1 car are quite amazing hybirds.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I,m an idiot..

Bad day x 5000.
NOT asking to excuse me.
I need to work this off..(disrespect)

The tech is for real, and yes was looked for trucking industry. (yrs ago). This, (generator enabled) is new (to me).
Why I posted.
 

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Explain permalink #5. Directed to me?

Willie
 

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Based on his subject change, I expect it was me.

Sometimes just saying one is not trying to be a dick is insufficient. :)

If it was directed at me, I apologize for my delivery.
 

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Or dick suckers.. Willie. Don't drool to me in posts, then act stupid from this ignorant idiot..
Watch the language folks! Not going to put up with a bunch of bad language and flame wars. Some one is gonna get a suspension:!:
 

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The potential for recature is really staggering amounts of energy!
Mike , EQ, Peter, any of you guys see any issues that would make this unfeasable? potential problems? (besides turboing a factory NA car of course)!
Most of the 'waste' energy is in the form of heat .. this proposed device mainly targets the smaller potential of 'waste' exhaust thrust ... kinetic energy of the moving exhaust air.

Taking kinetic energy from the exhaust air flow .. is not free .. it causes a back pressure that reduces the operating efficiency of the ICE .. Conventional Turbos try and compensate for this at the air intake .. Sometimes that is a net gain , sometimes that's a net loss.

It is not an accident that the turbo charger community doesn't use electric motors and generators like this ... It's less efficient than just using the kinetic energy as kinetic energy more directly .. the way more conventional Turbos already do.

If you had a PHEV powered Electric Super-Charger instead .. avoid the exhaust gas flow restriction / back pressure .. that could produce better results than a conventional exhaust driven turbo charger sense it could give the same ICE benefits without the back pressure negatives.

But ... if you have such a PHEV energy source in the Gen1 Insight ... it is more energy efficient to first use that PHEV energy with the IMA system .. via MIMA , IMA-C&C , etc... up to the limits of the IMA system 10-15kw.
 

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The electric motor technology to support this is coming of age. Several hobby motors for airplanes are over 100K RPM (http://www.koford.com/48HS.pdf).

Real planes may follow suit (Electrifying flight | The Economist)

This kind of Hybrid Turbo charger is being used in formula 1 with success (Turbo Compounding Is the Next Big Thing in Energy Recovery ? Feature ? Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog).
Looks like the energy used for the quick spin up of the turbo is partially or fully recovered by by alternator (similar to the insight's electric regen) to extract energy from the exhaust gas driven turbine at high-end revs, which would otherwise need be bypassed via wastegate (New electric assisted turbochargers or electric superchargers are coming soon! | Ridingmode)
 

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Interesting notes by Ian. I'm no car turbo guy by any means (I'm a steam guy), I like Ian's comment about using the electric to boost intake (and not involve exhaust).

Interesting changes on the horizon.
 

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In my experience there is no free lunch.

If it helps the bottom end it usually hinders the top end and vice versa. If it gives you a, it takes b. Hard to get free energy from air or a vacuum. :evil:

The technology using waste heat with thermal electric heat pumps is close, but it works off the delta v of the 2 surfaces so an air flow is required on one side and exhaust on the other.
 

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I think it's important for the OP to review the Three Laws of Thermodynamics:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't even get even.
3. You can't get out of the game.
 

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I would prefer a 5 stroke engine instead.
Various stroke engines are nothing new. And the two designs that have survived through the years are 2 and 4 stroke engines.

History of internal combustion engines.

As long as you want to add more strokes to a normal car engine consider this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-stroke_engine
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But I think we should first figure out what are we trying to end up with by going away from the ~30% efficient Insight engine?

More power or more efficiency? And adding more strokes to get power out of an engine doesn't really seem like the way to go. Those extra strokes take power to accomplish.

If you really want to get strange try this, Patent US2006676 - Electrolytic carburetor - Google Patents

What isn't mentioned in the patent is how much electrical power it would take to produce the hydrogen/oxygen gas to run a modern high hp engine. I once did the calculations to run my 62 hp CRX-HF engine and IIRC would take more than 3 times the power my engine could produce. Other than that ..........
 

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As others mentioned...

This has been done before. A lot. I even remember Mazda demonstrating an electric assist turbo on a rotary at the NAIAS sometime in the early 2000s. Not too bad an idea if there is a large amount of electrical power available (ie. HV battery pack).

However, many people incorrectly think of a turbo as "free" power. It absolutely isn't, in no way shape or form. It's like corking the exhaust. We measure anywhere from 15 to 25 PSI (or beyond for unusually restrictive or unusually high boost engines) of exhaust backpressure pre-turbine on rotary engines. Now that really only happens at high load, but it is still something engines need to overcome.

Right there that demonstrates how much power it takes to drive a turbocharger. It's not a model airplane prop. It is compressing LARGE volumes of air to 1 or multiple atmospheres.

The idea seems to be with OEMs is that the electric turbo doesn't generate great gobs of boost, but instead the motor pre-spools the turbo so that it's ready to receive that last kick from the exhaust, thus decreasing "lag" considerably.

Except that properly sized, modern turbos don't really lag. And variable geometry means that a wide range of ARs can be set on the fly to keep the turbo sized to the exhaust flow.

In order to generate any useful energy from the exhaust turbine, the engine has to be at either high load (exactly when you don't want parasitic drag) or the turbine needs to tighten up so there is enough velocity to drive it at low airflows. Which of course puts a cork in the exhaust, forcing the engine to work harder. And there isn't much thermal energy at light loads either.

Recouping energy via an exhaust turbine really only works for engines that operate at high load in a steady state. Used successfully in some diesel applications, stationary engines and aircraft.
 

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Three Laws of Thermodynamics:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't even get even.
3. You can't get out of the game.
Funny. Never heard that before but it is certainly true.

I like to add, "You can't get something for nothing. Someone always pays."
 

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Apparently credit for those summary Three Laws goes to famous English chemist C. P. Snow.

Your addition could be further summarized as TANSTAAFL.

Heinlein fans will know that one. :D
 
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