[lchesler]

I have a manual 00 insight. The SoC indicator recently "froze" at about 3/4 charge level for 3 months. The IMA battery was unaffected, and I seemed to get the same assist levels I'm used to on my commute (I have had the same hilly commute to work for years). I never therefore worried too much about the faulty indicator.

Recently, though, the autostop mechanism has been failing, and i think the indicator problem and the autostop problem are related. Stalls only occur after 30 minutes of stop and start driving with frequent autostops (and I drive with the lights on). At this point, I'm pretty sure it's when the IMA battery has completely lost its charge, my Insight reliably refuses to come out of autostop and the oil and battery lights come on, prior to the stall. I have to shut off the engine and restart by turning the key. After a few of these 12V assisted restarts, the 12V battery begins to fail, and I have to switch to non-economy mode to prevent autostop.

I think this is all related to a failure to force charge. Since the SoC indicator is always stuck reading 3/4 full, I've noticed that forced charging doesn't occur when it should (when I run out the IMA battery by forced depletion, for example). What used to happen under these conditions was that the SoC indicator went to zero and then forced charging prevented autostop entirely until there were 4-5 bars of charge in the IMA.....so, no stalls.

My dealer in San Francisco tells me I'm nuts, and there is no relationship between the SoC indicator and the way the IMA system functions at all (ie: no feedback from the indicator to the system), and that since there are no fault codes, and the SoC indicator is not under warranty (cost to replace = $2000), I have no options and should forget about it.

I think something's definitely wrong with the IMA, having driven this car for 5 years (65k miles). It doesn't charge to the capacity it has-ie: it runs out of assist 1/3 of the way up my hill, as opposed to at the top of it, and the force-charging mechanism is kaput. I've tried a recal/battery disconnect/force charge, and this helped for a while but then the indicator stuck again.

Can you explain the car's behavior, have others had this problem, and can you point me to solutions? I've read snippets on the forum, but can't put it all together.

Appreciate it, thanks,

 

[Mike Dabrowski 2000]

lchesler
You did not mention if your 12V battery has been changed. Many people have had strange IMA behavior when it begins to fail.
If it is a 2000 battery (mine is still original), it is worth a look, in light of your lights on and frequent AS driving .
It may also be worth pulling the fuse and doing a reset as described elsewhere on this forum.
FWIW :wink:

 

[Insightful Trekker]

Hi lchesler and welcome to the forum :!:

First off let me start with the standard words of caution. As you already know this can be a _very_ technical topic to attempt to diagnose (via a newsgroup is effectively blindfolded and by remote control). So if your serious about trying its going to take some extra care in precise choice of words and several post exchanges.

See:

Recals, Forced Charge, IMA Battery & thermal mgmt - long
http://www.insightcentral.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=750

for the preferred terms used.

Read and ready now :?:

OK, let's get to work :!:

The IMA gauge are software driven so any type of failure to correctly "display" the number of bars correctly is almost always a reflection of something else. There is the exception of a "leaking" LCD gauge unit where the segments blur or could go black.

The fact that a reset clears things up for a few days _confirms_ that the system _can_ work, but "learns" to revert to its newer limited behavior. There are a few battery failures that _could_ result in the symptoms you describe. But as you already know until the IMA system "codes" OR fails to give assist or regenerative braking charging, getting warranty consideration is all but impossible. In the dealer's / Honda's defense _most_ of the time they are right. After an IMA reset is a full Asst and Chrg as indicated on the IMA gauge more or less "normal" :?: During the "fault" condition are these two functions also "normal" :?: If not, explain in detail.

And I think I'm reading a "secondary" problem :?: Engine stalling :?: Please carefully and completely describe the frequency and conditions that this occurs and does not ( :?: ) occur.

Mileage on the car, any engine related maintenance due and or performed will also be needed. Oil changes shouldn't be a factor unless you've repeatedly exceeded the 7500 mile maximum. Driving pattern, e.g. frequency (daily) and "normal" distances traveled.

To recap:

1. Your concerned about the limited range of usage of the IMA SoC indicator.

2. In addition IMA Assist and Regen is more limited :?: Along with the expected lower power MPG and performance.

3. An IMA reset corrects _all_ the above, but only for a couple (few) days (The specific duration would depend on many factors and is not important, the fact that it does revert to "normal" is _critically_ important for diagnosis).

4. In addition you are now experiencing frequent ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) stalling. (Of which more specifics are needed)

Looks like Mike Dabrowski snuck in the back door :!: Good one Mike as in YUP :!: , get the 12v battery tested before anything else. (regardless of its age)

Awaiting your reply.

Sincerely,

 

[lchesler]

Thanks for the advice, I'll try to answer as well as possible:

....There is the exception of a "leaking" LCD gauge unit where the segments blur or could go black.

This is not an issue, just failure to indicate the charge level of the IMA battery. Stuck at 2/3.

....After an IMA reset is a full Asst and Chrg as indicated on the IMA gauge more or less "normal" :?: During the "fault" condition are these two functions also "normal" :?: If not, explain in detail.

The IMA reset clears things up. That's what the dealer did last week. Afterwards, the IMA indicator reads perfectly, and is usually about half charged. The stalling is eliminated, because at stops, when the IMA battery discharges completely after about 30 min of stop/start driving, the indicator reads one bar, and force charging prevents the autostop. However, usually a week or two after reset, the problem recurs

.......And I think I'm reading a "secondary" problem :?: Engine stalling :?: Please carefully and completely describe the frequency and conditions that this occurs and does not ( :?: ) occur.

I think the stalling is just related to autostop, only occurs after autostop, and only when the IMA battery is fully discharged, and only if the IMA indicator is "stuck". The service record is clean, and the 12V battery was replaced a couple of months ago when this problem first started.

Mileage on the car, any engine related maintenance due and or performed will also be needed. Oil changes shouldn't be a factor unless you've repeatedly exceeded the 7500 mile maximum. Driving pattern, e.g. frequency (daily) and "normal" distances traveled.

To recap:

1. Your concerned about the limited range of usage of the IMA SoC indicator.

2. In addition IMA Assist and Regen is more limited :?: Along with the expected lower power MPG and performance.

3. An IMA reset corrects _all_ the above, but only for a couple (few) days (The specific duration would depend on many factors and is not important, the fact that it does revert to "normal" is _critically_ important for diagnosis).

4. In addition you are now experiencing frequent ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) stalling. (Of which more specifics are needed)

Looks like Mike Dabrowski snuck in the back door :!: Good one Mike as in YUP :!: , get the 12v battery tested before anything else. (regardless of its age)

Awaiting your reply.

Sincerely,[/quote]

Thanks for the help!

 

[The Citrus Smoothie]

Regarding auto-stop stalling, I also suffer from the same problem and have to click on 'S' on my CVT to prevent auto-stop when coming to a halt. A few of us on the Forum have this problem and to date a cure has not been found. There have been a few theories, including replacing the 12V battery but to no avail. My next attempt will be to replace / install the engine ground wires. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful (or hopeful!)

 

[Calpod]

Welcome to the Forum lchesler, I have seen the same a few times, I think I reported on this a while back, the battery gauge will stay at about 3/4 full and will not move, I thought it was happening because I have better control of the charge with MIMA, but I see this is not the case.

Last time it happened to me was yesterday, I may be able to describe what's happening.

After having the charge high for a few weeks, it stays up there, and you don't notice anything different, the only way you can tell it's because you start getting less assist, however, recharge still occurs as normal.

I'm able to fully recharge the battery at will, but, after a few minutes of use it goes back to 3/4 and you are again limited on the assist.

The only way I have found to get rid of this is to really force a recal (I never thought I would say that) but that's what you need to do.

After you've force the recal the battery will start getting charged and you're back to normal, I have an OBD2 code reader hooked up all the time now, and I see the battery voltage going down to 12.1 and sometimes to 11.8 volts, so I'll check the battery, you should have your battery checked.

Please keep us updated, I'll report after I inspect/replace my 12 volt battery.

 

[Insightful Trekker]

The other thing I am wondering about is thermal limits on the pack.

For you and others Calpod there could be various different specific component failures. But if the IMA vents are blocked or more likely a cell in a sub pack is failing then thermal limits will begin to take effect. Seems starnge though that it would take a couple of days after a reset for it to again begin to present itself.

The grilles are easy enough to check but don't forget the vent holes on the bottom of the IMA case in front of the spare tire.

HTH!

 

[Calpod]

I have noticed that if I don't let the charge get too high it will be OK, if I let it get at about 18 bars and let it stay there for a while that's when it will do it, I'm going to try to repeat it in the next few days.

For me it's not a problem, I can force the charge, and I can also keep it down, I think this may be the reason they replace the batteries and the MCM, BCM at the same time.

Makes me wonder why they have to replace the MCM and BCM? :roll:

I have 145K miles with the original battery pack, I think with careful management it should (Hopefully) last another 50K.

 

[lchesler]

Well, sounds like this problem is not unique. I wouldn't otherwise worry about it except that the autostop stall is the real issue for driving, and I don't want to turn off my econ mode since that's one of the main reasons I bought the car.

One week after the monitor recalibration at the dealer, the problem has only recurred once. In general the monitor is now truly reflecting IMA charge variations, but did stick once for about an hour after a full IMA battery drain, and then one stall occurred. Shortly after that the monitor recalibrated itself to 1 bar, and since then has been functioning normally.

It seems to me that the monitor is reacting way more slowly than it used to as the car has aged......does this reflect degradation of the IMA system?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

<snip>
It seems to me that the monitor is reacting way more slowly than it used to as the car has aged......does this reflect degradation of the IMA system?

If your referring to the IMA SoC gauge then it should be opposite. A more fragile "full" State of Charge that's noticably easier to drain with "normal" assist and results in an eariler forced charge.

HTH!

 

[Guest]

I have a manual 00 insight. The SoC indicator recently "froze" at about 3/4 charge level for 3 months. The IMA battery was unaffected, and I seemed to get the same assist levels I'm used to on my commute (I have had the same hilly commute to work for years). I never therefore worried too much about the faulty indicator.

Recently, though, the autostop mechanism has been failing, and i think the indicator problem and the autostop problem are related. Stalls only occur after 30 minutes of stop and start driving with frequent autostops (and I drive with the lights on). At this point, I'm pretty sure it's when the IMA battery has completely lost its charge, my Insight reliably refuses to come out of autostop and the oil and battery lights come on, prior to the stall. I have to shut off the engine and restart by turning the key. After a few of these 12V assisted restarts, the 12V battery begins to fail, and I have to switch to non-economy mode to prevent autostop.

My 2000 Insight experienced identical symptoms about a year ago. What was frustrating initially was that my IMA warning light didn't illuminate despite an obvious IMA malfunction, and I was unable to demonstrate the problem to a Honda mechanic. Then I learned that by running with my headlights on during the day, turning on my A/C blower to high, and turning on other 12 v. loads, I could reliably cause my Insight to fail to automatically restart from autostop.

So I made a service appointment and drove to my dealer but instead of turning off the ignition as I registered for service, I let my car enter autostop. By the time the service representative came out to my car, it had dropped out of autostop (all dashboard lights illuminated). I asked the service rep to start my car and carefully listen for the 12 v. starter. Worked like a charm!

Despite no diagnostic codes, the mechanic described the symptoms to American Honda who authorized the replacement under warranty of the Battery Condition Module (BCM) and Motor Control Module (MCM). The replacement of these modules solved the problem.

Within about 3 months, the IMA light illuminated indicating a failed IMA battery (I had suffered frequent recals for about 3 years). The bad BCM might have contributed to the battery failure, so you should have this problem fixed ASAP.

 

[Rick]

Thanks for joining Insight Central Art!

 

[lchesler]

I have a manual 00 insight. The SoC indicator recently "froze" at about 3/4 charge level for 3 months. The IMA battery was unaffected, and I seemed to get the same assist levels I'm used to on my commute (I have had the same hilly commute to work for years). I never therefore worried too much about the faulty indicator.

Recently, though, the autostop mechanism has been failing, and i think the indicator problem and the autostop problem are related. Stalls only occur after 30 minutes of stop and start driving with frequent autostops (and I drive with the lights on). At this point, I'm pretty sure it's when the IMA battery has completely lost its charge, my Insight reliably refuses to come out of autostop and the oil and battery lights come on, prior to the stall. I have to shut off the engine and restart by turning the key. After a few of these 12V assisted restarts, the 12V battery begins to fail, and I have to switch to non-economy mode to prevent autostop.

My 2000 Insight experienced identical symptoms about a year ago. What was frustrating initially was that my IMA warning light didn't illuminate despite an obvious IMA malfunction, and I was unable to demonstrate the problem to a Honda mechanic. Then I learned that by running with my headlights on during the day, turning on my A/C blower to high, and turning on other 12 v. loads, I could reliably cause my Insight to fail to automatically restart from autostop.

So I made a service appointment and drove to my dealer but instead of turning off the ignition as I registered for service, I let my car enter autostop. By the time the service representative came out to my car, it had dropped out of autostop (all dashboard lights illuminated). I asked the service rep to start my car and carefully listen for the 12 v. starter. Worked like a charm!

Despite no diagnostic codes, the mechanic described the symptoms to American Honda who authorized the replacement under warranty of the Battery Condition Module (BCM) and Motor Control Module (MCM). The replacement of these modules solved the problem.

Within about 3 months, the IMA light illuminated indicating a failed IMA battery (I had suffered frequent recals for about 3 years). The bad BCM might have contributed to the battery failure, so you should have this problem fixed ASAP.

Thanks for this post. This perfectly describes the problem I've had and the predicament at the dealer. Although it sounds like your problem was somewhat more severe. I'm now having problems reproducing it since they reset the IMA. Which is fine by me, since, no more stalls. But this does confirm my feeling that the system is degrading over time, so as soon as this problem recurs, I'll now know exactly what to do!

I'll give followup later......thanks, lou