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I was surprised to find out that the $500 beater that I bought to get around while I'm fixing my Insight gets 40 mpg! That's almost Prius-like!

It's a 94 Nissan Sentra. With no AC, power steering, windows, locks or actually anything at all. It has a 110hp, 1.6l, 4-cylinder engine. On the first week of my regular commute (and some around-town-driving) it got 39.8 mpg at the pump. I think that is pretty amazing! Now, it's obviously not as clean as the Insight or as fun to drive, but what a fitting substitute!
 
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Hi Armin:

___You weren’t using any of those “special techniques” the some Insighter are known for, were you ;) I actually looked up that Nissan w/ the 1.6 L 4 over at EPA.gov and w/ the manual; it was rated for 29/38 City/Highway. Not bad for cheap transportation from 1994.

___Glad to hear you weren’t murdered at the pump while you are waiting for your Insight in any case.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:iz0oomzg][email protected][/email:iz0oomzg]
 

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I seem to remember Toyota having a stripped down corrolla or something in the 70's they called the honeybee that was supposed to get about 40 or so mpg. My '62 Rambler (at the time) got something in the mid 30's. This is one of the reasons that a 50mpg Prius didn't impress me much for 30 years of advancements. (of course my little 69mpg average Insight is marvelous!)
 

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> This is one of the reasons that a 50mpg Prius didn't impress

Please don't forget the primary purpose of Prius. It is emissions, not efficiency. So it differs from virtually all other vehicles on the road today.

And yes, there were in fact vehicles that got 50 MPG in the past. I owned one in fact. Highway-Only, I was able to get 52 MPG in my manual transmission Dodge Omni. The catch was that it was drastically more dirty. Emission technology causes an efficiency penalty... a reality those driving a SULEV Insight or Civic-Hybrid know quite well.
 
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Hi John1701a:

___Emissions is the Prius’ primary purpose? If that were the case, they most certainly didn’t need to add a Hybrid drivetrain with its excess expense for a relatively simple PZEV rating. A few hundred bucks into just about any automobile on the road today will get you a PZEV emission rating.

___Did you know that BMW, Ford, Volvo, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Volkswagen all have several PZEV models available to consumers? Just to bring you up to date, you can read more about what a PZEV rating is as well as the vehicles that meet it from Driveclean.Ca.Gov

___As for the period when you owned the Omni, there probably wasn’t much of anything on the road that was cleaner way back when ;)

___And on to the emissions technology … The vapor recovery systems of an SULEV rated automobile to meet the PZEV specifications doesn’t appear to distract from its overall fuel economy. Even the extremely efficient 5-speed Insight which is only rated as a ULEV by Honda for the EPA is achieving SULEV rated emissions when tested in the real world. That would only leave the vapor recovery improvements for it to meet a PZEV rating and they are not that difficult to achieve by my reads. I just don’t believe the additional PZEV HW distracts from the fuel economy is all. An example of such is the NOx adsorber in the 5-speed Insight’s exhaust stream. The 5-speed Insight does not have the restriction of a carbon filter intake trap but the downstream restrictions to trap NOx while in lean burn does not knock it from the top of the fuel economy list here in the states year after year after year. I have not dug deep enough into this question to say with 100% accuracy that a PZEV’s evaporative HW doesn’t decrease fuel economy but the only place I have read of lowered efficiency for a the PZEV rating has come from you and one other poster in a forum I have long since forgotten about? Could you post a link to clear this up possibly?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:k4qdlw3r][email protected][/email:k4qdlw3r]
 

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> Emissions is the Prius’ primary purpose?

Correct.

And it is a well proven fact that emission reduction alone does not appeal to the average consumer, especially when it also causes a reduction in efficiency.

That is why the secondary purpose of Prius is to deliver high efficiency.


> I just don’t believe the additional PZEV HW distracts from the fuel economy is all.

Correct.

SULEV requirements are what cause the reduction, not PZEV.

Remember, to achieve the PZEV rating, evaporative emissions are reduced. That has nothing to do with the engine or tailpipe. It is the gas tank.
 

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"An example of such is the NOx adsorber in the 5-speed Insight’s exhaust stream"

The CVT's still have the NOx converter too. Not really sure why, but it might have something to do with meeting sulev.


John1701a, love the web site, you do a good job keeping it up to date.
 
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Hi John1701a:
john1701a said:
Please don't forget the primary purpose of Prius. It is emissions, not efficiency. So it differs from virtually all other vehicles on the road today …

Emission technology causes an efficiency penalty …

Remember, to achieve the PZEV rating, evaporative emissions are reduced. That has nothing to do with the engine or tailpipe. It is the gas tank.
___PZEV’s are available in any number of other automobiles and with that, how does the Prius differ itself? Ask you neighbor or friend if 60/51 city/hwy estimates mean as much as a PZEV rating?

___I also have yet to find a description as to how PZEV HW lowers fuel efficiency?

___As for the gas tank being responsible for a PZEV, it is also the sealed intake, sealed fuel lines, sealed vapor canister, and anything else related to the intake, fuel, and/or vapors. Take a look at the intake of the PZEV based Ford Focus as an example. The intake filter is factory sealed and is supposed to be serviced by the dealership or qualified technician because it is an integral part of the PZEV emissions HW. This link might help you understand a few more of the nuances … Greetings and thank you from an "insider".

3) Main reason air filter is not serviceable is like you guessed - to ensure good seal for PZEV evap emissions requirements. Not only is it difficult (but not impossible) to make a filter element seal well enough for PZEV evap, but it's even more difficult to guarantee that careless do-it-yourselfers and oil change shops re-assemble the air filter box correctly. If too many vehicles were found to be serviced and/or re-assembled incorrectly, CARB/EPA could find a way to make Ford liable for that, which could lead to a recall. As concerned as Ford is about recalls, and as many recalls as Focus had for 2000MY, they couldn't flirt with that risk.
___Armin, sorry for straying so far OT … When do you get your Insight back?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:15gac6kd][email protected][/email:15gac6kd]
 

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Discussion Starter #9
back on topic

xcel said:
Armin, sorry for straying so far OT … When do you get your Insight back
When I find the time to work on it!

It's been resting peacefully in my garage the last two weeks. If the boss (my girlfriend) lets me, I'll be making a first assesment this weekend.

First, I want to find out what rattles when the engine gets started and hopefully eliminate that, so the car can drive under it's own power again. Although it is easy to push! Then start a list of parts I need and go shopping...
 

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I'll eat my hat when another hybrid gets better mileage than my Insight.

Lets not forget that conservation is just as important as emissions
 

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I'm just waiting for a Prius owner to point out that for the transportation of 5 people, the Prius would be vastly more efficient than the 3 Insights it would take do to the same. :)
 
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Hi AZCivic:
AZCivic said:
I'm just waiting for a Prius owner to point out that for the transportation of 5 people, the Prius would be vastly more efficient than the 3 Insights it would take do to the same. :)
___They already have! If you happen to read the monster thread called “Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?” over in the Edmunds - Prius discussion threads, it even got more ridiculous. I had one guy say instead of driving the MDX w/ 6 passengers and all the gear, I should have driven the Insight and my wife should have driven the Corolla to CO., to AZ, and back again. The insanity will never end …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1z5d5klq][email protected][/email:1z5d5klq]
 

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Methinks the trouble in USA is that 99% of all cars only have one person in them when they are driven.

Then it is magnified by the SUVs which are 99.999% driven with just one person in them, making that tiny 1% of the time when there are more than one person virtually go away altogether.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but those are rock hard numbers here in USA. I dare anyone to dispute their accuracy!!

Figgy

p.s. I wonder what % of the time Prius owners drive with just one person in them.
 

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While were out there in OT land, and bashing cars...

I don't think I've ever seen a tandem bike without the second rider, maybe we should make the passenger seats in cars have pedals?

I for one would enjoy pedaling in a car to help increase the battery charge for going up a hill. That would be wild.

We could engineer the seats to that if the passengers stopped pedaling, then they got an electrical shock to make them start again.

If a driver ever drove with no passengers, then all the electroshocks for the absent passengers would be directed into his seat to encourage him to carpool.

I am totally on a roll here!
 

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Figgy, I'm still laughing about the electro shocks. Just wanted to add that besides driving solo, SUV drivers always seem to be on the phone or dialing the phone or involved in some other activity besides driving the stupid things.
 
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