[figgy]

I think it appropriate to devote a thread to not the buy/sell process for the turbo kits but the driving and user experience along with troubleshooting.

I figure Willie's thread should stay intact, as that is about Willie's ongoing ground breaking adventure, and the buy/sell should be about the buy/sell so this one will fill in the rest.

 

[figgy]

FIRSTLY:

DTCs encountered

To start, in the buy/sell, I mentioned the MAP sensor out of bounds error causing the check engine and 'safe mode' coming on. My experience is that when the error code trips the IMA drops and you kind of lurch not to a full stop but lurch with a quick deceleration and then you can still decently cruise along in 3rd or higher, but 1st and 2nd are worthless. One time I had a really rough idle. Every time I have reset the DTC, things have gone completely back to normal.

However, I have now reset after it comes on that same DTC many many times and I still get it very frequently. Jack and Willie - do you still get that code error? If not, how many times did you reset the error code and how did you drive to trigger it?

I am also sometimes seeing a 'pending' code P1165 (the bank 1 sensor 1 O2 sensor) and 'catalyst not operating efficiently' or similar as 'pending' codes. Do you guys see these codes as well?

I am sure I am not doing the car any favors by inducing the error codes since it gives it quite a jolt when the code brings the car to the 'safe mode' - so I don't want to keep doing it unless I know it will be just a few times and then over and done with...

SECONDLY:

IGNITION TIMING ADVANCE

I recorded the 'ignition timing advance' over some longer drives and find that it ranges from -18 to 40, which seems a huge range. I haven't looked at that parameter before on a stock Insight. Is this outside of normal?

THIRDLY:

CLEARING DTCs

I can clear the DTCs and have the car return to normal without stopping, and I can't detect any problems associated with this. I assume that if Honda made it possible to do this, it is OK? Does anyone know of anything to the contrary about clearing the codes while driving?

 

[Insightful Trekker]

I think it appropriate to devote a thread to not the buy/sell process for the turbo kits but the driving and user experience along with troubleshooting.

I figure Willie's thread should stay intact, as that is about Willie's ongoing ground breaking adventure, and the buy/sell should be about the buy/sell so this one will fill in the rest.

GREAT idea Figgy :!:

I'll do what I can to help too :!:

 

[Yves M.]

Hello Figgy,

Does your car setup have more boost in psi than the others have. I do not remember that they had similar problems.

I have a very hard time beleiving that the car "learn" from a driving style as mentionned somewhere else. It just operates within is programmed parameters. You need to be in there.

Did you have any codes before doing the mod, could it be something that was going to happen?
If I remember, Willie had a separate fuel injector used when Boost is applied. But I would expect that if it gives not enough or too much gas, it would get the system to think that it is not properly measuring the gas and mix. Since it has no control over that injector

Those are just questions basically, I do not have answers. Brain food.

 

[figgy]

Right now it is set to 6 lbs as maximum boost. From other replies, I think that the stock exhaust system back end still on until Saturday is the likely culprit for the issues coming up as far as DTCs and such.

Thinking about this and how things are so far, I think for me I will find the ideal system to be the proper exhaust system in place and a max boost of no more than 5 lbs and maybe even less.

I am not trying to make the fastest car on the street, I want to make the funnest car on the street.

My reasons for the low boost maximum are that even with the stock 'pea-shooter' exhaust, I still get enough power to torque streer a bit and with proper exhaust I will only haver more power. Therefore, it seems that 5 lbs is likely enough boost to give you all the power you need AND let you stomp on it if you want and go for it to race the Ferrari without ever having you worry that you are overpowered and feel like there is any doubt as to your control.

Secondly, I really like the quirky way one drives the Insight and the kind of 'IMA' style for mpg, and a lower boost system kind of floats on this as a secondary feature at the lower boost ranges helping out but not dominating and therefore, I believe leading to more fun driving but at the same time more efficient driving.

I am anticipating that a max boost level of between 4 lbs and 5 lbs (which is so low as to make the boost heads laugh) will allow for all the fun without really changing the funky way the Insight is with the IMA. The downside is that you aren't quite powered up to really go fast, but the upside is that you have all the fun of the turbo and power when you want it. Thus, if you want to turn a blind eye to lmpg you can zip around with impunity, but if you want to go for a hypermileage tank or two, you can still do it same or better as stock.

As a last comment, I really want to know if a low max boost system can be used to create super-hyper-mileage driving. For example, as a test what if the max boost is even as low as 3 lbs? What if that gives you extended battery life and better mpg at the same time? What if that means that when you are using all your assist and then run your battery down and have to downshift and use more gas, you can instead use 90% of that assist, with the turbo taking up the slack from the waste energy in the exhaust and then your IMA is better and your mpg is better?

Everyone drives turbos for power and no one drives them for mpg, what if we tried a turbo as an mpg maximizer? It might be totally cost in-efficient given that the turbo isn't free, but I really want to try it as an experiment. I would love to prove that a low boost system can give better mpg than a stock system. It would be fun.

 

[kapps]

Remember that when you put that more open exhaust on, your boost is going to go down a bit. The air is going to have an easier way out of the engine so you will have even more power with less boost (both a good thing).

I also have a MINI Cooper S and know people with 19% under drive pulley's will drop from 19 to 18 or 17 lbs of boost when they get an open exhaust. Since your running a low boost system, it's not going to be as dramatic but it'll still be there. You might not have to dial back as much as you think.

 

[Willie Williford]

turbo kit experience

As I said many times before and Jack has realized. Going from a "normal" car to an Insight, you relearn how to drive. Going from an Insight to a "TURBO INSIGHT" you again have to relearn to drive. I very seldonm use over 50% throttle opening and feather the turbo into use. My LMPG is stable at 58.9 after 143,000 miles (79,000 with turbo). Don't "mash" the gas pedal, learn to "feather" the pedal.

After you learn to drive with the turbo, you will be able to drive (without assist) (with assist) and (with turbo). Keep the engine "humming around 2200 to 2500 rpm and your mileage will be proper.
If you don't have a vacuum/boost gauge installed, get one.
That is what I monitor mostly instead of the "foot".
(Less load on the engine at a specific rpm equals better mileage and less wear on the IMA battery)...............My opinion.

 

[figgy]

I don't mean to imply that I run around flooring the gas every chance I get. I hope it doesn't appear that I meant that!

My observation is that with the system partially installed now, I see a very diminished low rpm contribution of the IMA assist vs stock.

This is most noticed if one tries to create a condition under which the stock Insight gives full assist, which means flooring it at a low rpm in a higher gear. That guarantees that the stock Insight will give it all the assist it can give. With the turbo as it stands now (not completed fully) this does NOT happen any longer. It means that somehow the IMA is responding differently than before.

I am trying to explore/learn why and how this different response is happening.

The best example is that if one is cruising in a high gear and knows there is a long huge downhill ahead, one may want to have the battery down at the top of the long hill. Therefore, one may drive in a style to use more assist rather than less as one approaches that known hill. With the reduced assist, the battery stays more full than one would like in such a situation.

That is better for battery life, but it is not the same as the stock Insight in behavior. I would like to understand exactly why, hence my questions.

My curiosity is to explore how the turbo and the IMA interact and understand it better.

For mpg, for example, if the IMA still was used just as much as stock IMA comes on at low rpm, would that mean that you would get even higher mpg than stock because you could extend the time you are in higher gears vs. lower gears? The IMA would pick up the lower rpm torque requests from your foot and then bring you up to the power band of the ICE multplied in oomph by the turbo. This would allow a reduction in downshifting, which typically uses more fuel.

I would like to run this experiment, to see if this would be true. If I can't ever get the IMA behaving like stock at low rpm throttle increases, then I can't ever answer this question. It may be obsessing on the IMA system, but it is interesting.

I wish we had the IMA pulse button! ':lol:'

 

[figgy]

ignition timing advance

Well, I recorded some data while driving stock Jane with OEM tires around town and found that while her ignition timing advance data ranged over about the same as Edwin's partial turbo install and Yokos, with Jane the dips to the negatives were fewer and very brief. The turbo install with stock exhaust appears to have a similar range, but longer deviations to negatives and more frequent - but under more aggressive driving at times.

Most of the time Jane was in the teens to low 20s with ups and downs around that. Edwin was similar, but more excursions to negatives. Range for both was about -15 to 40 as the extremes.

I'll post more info when the kit is installed completely with proper exhaust and with max boost at 5 lbs.

I only have the palm software, so I can't easily post the raw data or store it. Dang it. Pound the table in anguish. ':x' Grrr

 

[b1shmu63]

Figgy, here are my thoughts regarding your experience so far. See if it makes sense.

If the turbo is functioning it effectively creates a positive feedback that is controlled by system losses. (If this was not the case the engine would destroy itself.) One effect of this positive feedback is that the throttle needs less movement to create the same output horsepower/torque. Since the IMA boost is determined in part by the throttle position you should see less IMA assist relative to the output torque. It seems to me that this would be a normal result of boosting the ICE power. This is not necessarily bad for fuel efficiency. It means that the engine is getting more air with the Vtec valve train in its economy mode. This mode creates a better swirl and requires less force to open the valves. Valve train loss is a major factor reducing engine efficiency.

I also think that a less restrictive exhaust will actually lower th turbo lag time and allow the turbo to spin up to a higher RPM at a given engine RPM. The total volume of exhaust created will decrease and the stress on the ICE decrease. This can be proven by analyzing what would happen if the exhaust was further restricted.

Keep us informed. Thanks

Kip

 

[Jackmpg]

Partial Turbo Install

Hi b1shmu63,
Your understanding is correct. With only part of the turbo system installed Baby had map and O2 codes. After the system was completed and an ECU reset this stopped. Would get an ocational O2 code like Willie's Rocket. Warren has O2 simulators. I installed one of these for the # 2 sensor and that stopped the codes. I installed mine at the ECU under passenger floor. I think Warren's going to fix them so they can be installed at the O2 sensor and tie-rap'd to the top/back of tranny where it's reasonably cool, he'll water proof them first. A quicker, cleaner install. Like Willie, I'm learning to drive with the boost gauge. Less and less with the mpg indecator. It's easier, like he says, to tell if there's any hidden charging going on, to reduce those incidents and therefore further enhance your mpg. Baby's turbo is set for 5 lbs which is more than enough. I will keep it there though. If your foot doesn't go there, it can't either. If your driving for mpg's you won't either. The turbo, without boost, takes a lot of load off the engine and IMA(less hidden charging) which equates to better mpgs, city, Hwy and lean burn. I also expect those numbers to improve when I switch Baby's turbo from the G-13(spools up at 3200) to the G-9(2500) like Willie's and Figgy's. Jack

 

[figgy]

Update:

Saturday got the exhaust put in and O2 simulator for second sensor.

No more DTCs of any kind, pending or otherwise - and hence no more CELs of course!

I'll give details shortly.

 

[figgy]

To recap: Last Monday we ran out of time and I had to return home with no boost gauge and with still the stock exhaust. That set-up when boost started to go up gave MAP DTCs which caused the car to go to ‘safe mode’ (CEL on and IMA off etc.). I also saw O2 sensor pending DTCs and catalyst below efficiency DTCs frequently.

The following is information where I still have the stock exhaust and original BOV:


:IMPORTANT:

In case anyone wants to leave the stock exhaust, it might be OK with low max boost, but I can’t say for certain. The reason is that it turns out the wastegate was set for a max boost of NINE (9) lbs and NOT 5 lbs. Therefore, the MAP DTCs may have been because of the combination of the stock exhaust and the high boost. It may be that with a max boost of 5 lbs, the stock exhaust will not cause MAP errors. That can save money, and it keeps the car quiet and just like stock. Someone will have to experiment, as I don’t have the stock exhaust on there any longer!

HOWEVER! There is one other variable here which might make the 9 lbs a moot issue. The stock exhaust was on with a piston type BOV which we have since swapped out (Jack’s suggestion as he saw some possibilities of leaks with that one) for a diaphragm type. If the old BOV was set for less than 9 lbs, then I never would have gotten to the max boost of the wastegate anyway – so the MAP codes would have been going off UNDER 9 lbs. Possibly a lot under depending upon the setting of that BOV. I don’t know what that BOV setting was. It was crazy loud and vented very very frequently, which makes me think that perhaps it was well below the 9 lbs of the wastegate. The new BOV does not behave this way. I want to check on this with Warren. The point I am trying to make for the stock exhaust and MAP codes is that if the BOV was keeping pressure low, then the message is that you can’t keep the stock exhaust. Period. If the old BOV was letting boost get all the way up to 9 (wastegate max) and the MAP codes were only going off at 8 or 9 lbs with the stock exhaust, then maybe running with a 5 lb max boost will be fine with stock exhaust.

Maybe Warren can check the BOV settings on the one we replaced, and can tell from looking at it what the setting was for that first BOV – since swapped out for the different one.

:IMPORTANT:


Saturday I went back up to get the work finished.

The following is therefore with the STOCK EXHAUST and with wastegate MAX BOOST at 9 lbs, but babied and probably never over 4 lbs. By driving like a granny, I rarely heard much out of the BOV either, but I did hear it a little bit at times. This makes me think that the BOV was set closer to the 5 lb target we wrongly thought we had for the wastegate, and therefore means that the stock exhaust will have to go even for low boost systems. However, with no boost gauge at the time, it is impossible to know for certain.

On the trip out on Saturday (with stock exhaust and no boost gauge installed yet), I recorded Engine Coolant, IAT, and the O2 sensor 1 and O2 sensor 2 voltages and throttle position. Because I had no boost gauge yet, and pushing much boost caused the MAP sensor error and CEL and ‘safe mode’, I tried to be very gentle and never go above about 3500 rpm and never full throttle. It may have gone over 3500 a bit, but I never saw a MAP code generated. I definitely never gave it full throttle.

That said, I was using the turbo somewhat for a lot of the trip, and I definitely was getting low boost cruising along and climbing hills in 5th as if I let up quickly on the gas I could hear the BOV a bit – again indicating that it likely was at a low setting (under the wastegate 9 lbs).

When I left it was in the high 40s to low 50s, about 8:30 am with few clouds; it gradually warmed to high 60s or low 70s. The engine coolant warmed to about 198-199 and then basically stayed there for the entire trip (130 miles, about 2.5 hrs) going about 63-68 mph pretty much the entire way. IAT gradually rose from high 50s (pretty much outside air temp at start) to about 90 by the time the coolant hit 199 and then rose slowly as the day warmed up to peak at about 108 as a max where it stayed pretty much the rest of the way. Climbing a hill, IAT would go up a bit to about 113, and on the way down drop to about 100 then go back to 108ish for cruising. There aren’t any steep hills up or down, but there are some gentle long ups and downs.

The first O2 sensor was around 0.5 V +/- while the second sensor reading was sometimes stable, sometimes fluctuating and generally not reliable at all. I think this might have been a malfunctioning simulator? I don’t actually remember what was installed for the second one then...a simulator or the actual sensor?

When I got the Midnight there were pending O2 sensor codes, but I had not seen any MAP DTC because of the gentle driving throughout the entire trip. Trip mpg was about 64, which I suppose is pretty good for the speed and conditions, but I wasn’t driving for mileage. With the Yokos, I see about 10% or 10 mpg lower than with OEMs, so this would translate to mid 70s for 50 psi OEM tires.

Point here is that with the stock exhaust and driving with very gentle throttle at all times, this trip did not get me any MAP DTCs at all. Coolant and IAT were both reasonable the entire trip. The great unknown is what boost I actually was using during the trip. Likely not more than 3 or 4 lbs max.

Since the system is now all different, maybe all this is just a waste of time to report, but it is the only decent trip data I have for the stock exhaust, so maybe it will help someone out.

That is for the trip out, with stock exhaust.

Next post, and future posts, will be for final installed system.

 

[figgy]

Finally, the kit is installed completely.

Max boost is about 7 lbs at redline in 2nd gear. On freeway max boost comes to about 4 lbs in 4th with hard acceleration from 50 to 80 mph or so, and a bit more in 3rd. With MAP sensor bypass thingy removed ('missing link') at these low levels still no MAP sensor induced CELs coming on. Hooray.

Basically, boost in normal driving is not usually above 3 or 4 lbs, with more when called for - but not in normal driving. Very minor boost comes on nice and early, and this definitely helps lean burn and efficiency at low rpm. Where most 'turbo' folks probably don't even consider it boost.

I saw the same as Jack on the way out and back today, where I was getting tons of lean burn at speeds over 70 mph. Outside air temps were in the 50s. It seems that you can essentially get the same mpg you would get going 60-65 but you are going 70-75. Definitely less IMA required on the uphills, but it comes on when you give it a lot of throttle. The IMA is still there, just a little bit more shy.

There was lots of traffic most all of the way, and it was very nice to be able to keep up and not clog the roads and still get the high mpg.

I had Warren swap out my dying 12V for a Civic battery he had there, so I have a new 12V as well.

I also had him put in a second straight pipe muffler thing (glass pack? I dunno - ask Warren). You can tell I am an expert in race exhaust sound reduction systems. Anyway, I had him do this because I missed hearing the road noise from the tires! Ha ha. Actually, with the single silencer up front, the exhaust system noise was such that it was louder than the road noise and drowned out the engine noise. I like to drive hearing the engine, so it was disconcerting to hear only the exhaust and not the engine. Anyway, Warren today added the second element and now it thrums along a little bit but is very very mild and quiet. Not quiet as quiet as stock, but nearly. Given the loud exhausts of every other car up there in the shop, they all probably think I am totally insane. I like it quiet though.

If you like to hear your exhaust rumble through the pipes, you can have that, or you can have it quiet. Your option. I chose quiet.

I am very happy now that it is finally all ship shape.

Today temps were at most up in the low 60s, so I can't yet speak for high temp days, but again even with some hard test driving to make sure it was OK, coolant stayed low as did IAT. I have seen less of negative timing advance since it is fixed and finished. I don't know, maybe that was the stock exhaust back pressure. Something to think about for those who want to keep stock exhaust. Now it rarely goes negative, and only for short periods.

p.s. For easier comparison for the group, I have swapped the tires between Jane and Edwin so for the moment Edwin is 50 psi OEMs and Jane has the Yokohamas.

 

[b1shmu63]

I'm really glad it worked out.

From what you are saying it sounds like the car is capable of better mileage. If this is true it is revolutionary! I suppose time will tell. Thanks for keeping us informed. 8)

 

[Midnightturboinsight]

Finally, the kit is installed completely.

Max boost is about 7 lbs at redline in 2nd gear. On freeway max boost comes to about 4 lbs in 4th with hard acceleration from 50 to 80 mph or so, and a bit more in 3rd. With MAP sensor bypass thingy removed ('missing link') at these low levels still no MAP sensor induced CELs coming on. Hooray.

Basically, boost in normal driving is not usually above 3 or 4 lbs, with more when called for - but not in normal driving. Very minor boost comes on nice and early, and this definitely helps lean burn and efficiency at low rpm. Where most 'turbo' folks probably don't even consider it boost.

I saw the same as Jack on the way out and back today, where I was getting tons of lean burn at speeds over 70 mph. Outside air temps were in the 50s. It seems that you can essentially get the same mpg you would get going 60-65 but you are going 70-75. Definitely less IMA required on the uphills, but it comes on when you give it a lot of throttle. The IMA is still there, just a little bit more shy.

There was lots of traffic most all of the way, and it was very nice to be able to keep up and not clog the roads and still get the high mpg.

I had Warren swap out my dying 12V for a Civic battery he had there, so I have a new 12V as well.

I also had him put in a second straight pipe muffler thing (glass pack? I dunno - ask Warren). You can tell I am an expert in race exhaust sound reduction systems. Anyway, I had him do this because I missed hearing the road noise from the tires! Ha ha. Actually, with the single silencer up front, the exhaust system noise was such that it was louder than the road noise and drowned out the engine noise. I like to drive hearing the engine, so it was disconcerting to hear only the exhaust and not the engine. Anyway, Warren today added the second element and now it thrums along a little bit but is very very mild and quiet. Not quiet as quiet as stock, but nearly. Given the loud exhausts of every other car up there in the shop, they all probably think I am totally insane. I like it quiet though.

If you like to hear your exhaust rumble through the pipes, you can have that, or you can have it quiet. Your option. I chose quiet.

I am very happy now that it is finally all ship shape.

Today temps were at most up in the low 60s, so I can't yet speak for high temp days, but again even with some hard test driving to make sure it was OK, coolant stayed low as did IAT. I have seen less of negative timing advance since it is fixed and finished. I don't know, maybe that was the stock exhaust back pressure. Something to think about for those who want to keep stock exhaust. Now it rarely goes negative, and only for short periods.

p.s. For easier comparison for the group, I have swapped the tires between Jane and Edwin so for the moment Edwin is 50 psi OEMs and Jane has the Yokohamas.

Thanks Chris, Jack, Willie.. glad to hear everything is going well.. looks like Thanks to chris.. we now finally have our completely tested production Turbo hybrid kit.. Jack i will be sending your other kit out ASAP.. I just been so busy at the shop.. its crazy.. JAck and Chris u saw that first hand.. only if i had 10 of my running around.. All in all this was a great experience and we hope to be able to do more turbos.. this new kit is a lot easier to install, the kit is pretty close to Willies kit.. So i will be back soon to read more updates chris has on his car.. and Jack yours too..

Talk to you guys later..

Warren
Midnight Performace

 

[figgy]

Hi all,

I posted some data from a test drive at:

http://insight.fungiart.com/edwinturbo.html

The max boost according to MAP sensor readings is a bit over 8 lbs, rather than the target of 6-7 we had in mind.

I have had one O2 Sensor 1 CEL and a pending O2 Sensor 1, but I haven't narrowed down when they get set - if it is during boost or not during boost.

:?: Take a look at the graphs for RPM vs. Boost in 2nd gear, and see if you think the profiles are as expected?

:?: I am thinking that since the 8 lbs is only at the very peak when I push it hard in 2nd, and this is very very rare driving to this hard, that it is probably fine to leave it the way it is?

I am getting a friend's old PC and some PC software, which I hope will let me get more data and present it better.

 

[figgy]

Doh! Maybe if I had read the directions to the Palm software it would have been a good idea.

I have put up another page with a full plot of:

RPM
MPH
Timing Advance
Boost (converted to lbs)
Throttle Pos

See:

http://insight.fungiart.com/edwinturbo.html

page 1, and page 2

The big plot on page 2 charts all the above parameters for several cycles in the first test run. It does a good job to show that the timing advance is behaving well and indicating no errors or troubles under boost conditions.

Click on the chart image for a big view.

I can post a plot of the stock Insight. If you watch recorded data for a stock drive, the relationship between throttle and timing advance is not much different from with the turbo. There is no indication (so far) that the turbo under these levels of boost is coming anywhere close to causing knock conditions or any troubles to make the system deviate outside of normal.

 

[figgy]

I just adjusted the actuator arm longer by 4 half turns (2 full turns), in the hope of calming the boost beast to a reasonable figure.

I will post results after I drive.

 

[figgy]

Just a quick update:

The problem with the overboost and erratic boost is that the diaphfragm on the wastegate actuator doesn't begin to crack until about 10 lbs of pressure, which is below what the Insight can make with the exhaust I have anyway so driving hard is limited by driving not by the wastegate and over our target.

This will get fixed next week or soon. In the meantime, I just drive very gently.

The lean burn at 65 to 70+ mph is real and reproducible and essentially lets you drive 10 to 15 mph faster than normal and still get the same mpg. You can drive with traffic and get the same mpg as with the stock Insight putting along in the slow lane.

One tank so far gave mpg real slightly less than the car thought, but that is with a huge amount of hard driving for testing. I think it will end up being a non-detectable difference. Most of the turbo mpg benefits are at virtually no boost at all where there is no extra fuel used vs. stock.