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I don't think we're really able to use the OBDIIC&C SoC readout down to 20% quite as you describe. I think most BCMs hang at 28% until a 'tap is empty' and then the value goes to 25%. After that, if you're still discharging with an external device, it will go down to 17.9% or so and quit... I've never known for sure, but my understanding is that the empty tap thing means a cell has already 'dropped out', meaning its voltage has started to plummet toward zero, meaning at least one cell is essentially empty. It has been said that a 'cell dropping out' is the only thing that causes the SoC to go from the hang at 28% to 25% (i.e. to 'neg recal')...

I think the 1.5A discharge down to 140V would be adequate. That is about equal to what you get when you do an auto-stop discharge.
 

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I have Mike's Datalogger running on my laptop, so I'll be tracking the discharge situation and will be able to produce graphs of how it went. Should be interesting...

B
 

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I've been using the OBDIIC&C with the IMAC&C and have gotten the battery to about 150 volts by continually trying to apply assist. That represents a SOC at about 33% of full. The Insight keeps stopping further discharge and applying charge to keep things around there. I may have seen it get to about 137 volts at some point before a robust recovery algorithm must have kicked in.

In another day or two, I'll try reducing charge further with the Genesis 2 charger/discharger to try to get closer to 120V before shutting down the IMA and moving Bluesight to storage.

B
 

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I've been using the OBDIIC&C with the IMAC&C and have gotten the battery to about 150 volts by continually trying to apply assist. That represents a SOC at about 33% of full. The Insight keeps stopping further discharge and applying charge to keep things around there. I may have seen it get to about 137 volts at some point before a robust recovery algorithm must have kicked in.
hmm... When you say "stopping further discharge and applying charge," you're probably seeing what I'd call 'aggressive throttling' rather than 'stopping discharge' per se. As far as I know, the only time the car will actually disable discharge and force a charge (barring some kind of fault) is after a neg recal - after a cell drops out, after the pack is considered effectively empty, etc.. Until that happens, I think the BCM/MCM will merely start to more aggressively throttle assist and more aggressively try to background charge.

I think there's multiple criteria that can trigger this and it can vary from one BCM and/or MCM version to another. For instance, my 305 BCM/MCM will start to aggressively throttle assist at about a nominal 38% charge state, whereas my 010/030 BCM/MCM do it at I think about 34%, and both of these happen regardless of total voltage. I can still have assist, just that it takes way more throttle and the amount is greatly reduced.

On the flip side, if 'voltage' is too low yet nominal state of charge is still high, I think that can trigger more aggressive throttling and/or ICE-based charging (i.e. background charging, sort of forced charging, etc.). Here I'm not sure if it's total voltage or tap voltage, but it's most likely tap voltage.

In any event, you're getting more aggressive throttling and charge most likely because you're below the low nominal state of charge criterion -- 33% would be below both of my computers' thresholds. 150V resting V actually sounds a bit on the high side for cycling from high to low in more or less one operation (if you cycle up and down about 10% in a low charge state range, such as between 30% and 40%, however, voltage should pop back up)... Not sure what it means, if anything...

As far as 137V is concerned, you're probably talking about a loaded voltage there, right?. I've never seen a resting voltage that low in any normal operational circumstances, it's not really possible... I've never been able to figure out just what's going on in terms of algorithms and assist vs. voltage, state of charge, and the like. In general, you should be able to get really high assist, like pretty much full assist, until the low state of charge throttling threshold is reached. The minimum total voltage is like 120V - mash the throttle, voltage might dip for an instant under 120V, but the MCM will throttle quickly so that voltage is at least 120V. And then, the car seems to throttle assist so that voltage will hover around 132V, that is, I think, unless you're going full throttle. Seems like I've seen on more than one occasion well below 132V when I've got the throttle mashed to the floor, but under other circumstances, assist is throttled so that total voltage remains around 132V, or 1.1V per cell...

The main point here, though, is that you should be able to see quite low total voltages - if your pack is balanced. Since most of the main algorithms most likely use tap voltages, throttling happens based on tap voltages, not total voltage. In other words, if the lowest total voltage you see on assist load is say only 137V, it most likely means your pack has some imbalance - because one tap is hitting the low voltage threshold while the others are simmering at relatively higher voltages. Quick math example:

10 taps, 12 cells each, minimum of 1.1V per cell, each tap min. of 13.2V during assist throttling.
One tap at 13.2V, while others at X voltage: (137V - 13.2V) / 9 remaining taps,
9 remaining taps each at 13.76V on average, or 1.15V per cell on average...

I'm not saying that this is what's going on in your situation, as you're only throwing out a rough voltage (137V) and you're most likely below the low state of charge throttling threshold anyway - so the car is going to throttle assist regardless of voltage. I'm just providing an example of what could be happening, given this or that...
 

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Keep in mind that I am repeatedly forcing assist through the IMAC&C to bring the IMA to this "minimum" state. Nothing very "natural" about it, and it's probably not such a good idea. I'm basically forcing whatever algorithms are there to repeatedly attempt recovery from the low SOC state.

So, start with forcing 16A assist at 150V that may drop the voltage to 144V briefly (once, as low as 137V). Then, while maintaining forced assist on the IMAC&C, the actual assist current (and assist bars) eventually (actually, pretty quickly) goes to zero and voltage comes back to and stays at 150V. Touch the brakes, and forced assist shuts down (by design) and strong recharge is automatically applied. After a few moments, recharge voltage starts climbing to 151V and on. Re-asserting forced assist (with brakes off) repeats the process. It sort of provides a limited window into the charging algorithm at low SOC.

At this point, I don't believe this is showing that there are issues with bad cells in the IMA battery. But I may find out more about that using the Genesis discharge procedure.

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Keep in mind that I am repeatedly forcing assist through the IMAC&C to bring the IMA to this "minimum" state. Nothing very "natural" about it, and it's probably not such a good idea. I'm basically forcing whatever algorithms are there to repeatedly attempt recovery from the low SOC state.
Good 'reminder' - I was mostly thinking of normal operation when I wrote stuff above. Interesting that IMAC&C isn't able to avoid the 'algorithms'. I don't think you should worry much about it, I can't see how you'd harm anything. The OEM management is way too eager to charge in the first place - I've been using my pack mostly in the lower than 50% range for about a year - with full-on full assist quite often, at really low SoC - and the pack only gets better, more efficient and other stuff... The only thing that might cause trouble is if, somehow, a single cell is out of whack (say not as charged as others, or maybe higher internal resistance) and the BCM can't recognize that. I don't see why it wouldn't, though...

So, start with forcing 16A assist at 150V that may drop the voltage to 144V briefly (once, as low as 137V). Then, while maintaining forced assist on the IMAC&C, the actual assist current (and assist bars) eventually (actually, pretty quickly) goes to zero and voltage comes back to and stays at 150V....
hmm, this kind of makes me think that a low voltage tap is in play, perhaps at least at one point or another. Or maybe your state of charge determination is out of whack. You should be able to use the pack plenty good down to low total voltages; a drop to 144V or even 137V at 16A shouldn't cause aggressive forced-charging on its own. If one of the taps was low, though, that I think does cause aggressive forced charging. If this were happening above say 38% I'd think it were a low tap. Since it sounds like it's happening around 33%, it's normal, since you're lower than the nominal low state of charge 'throttling' threshold. The thing is, seems like your voltage should be lower at this point, i.e. SoC isn't 'really' at 33%, but higher, or rather, most taps are higher, yet one is probably low... Basically, low nominal state of charge and low pack voltage should go hand in hand if the state of charge determination and the actual charge state match. If they don't go hand in hand, then either a tap is low or the SoC determination is off. At least, I'm pretty sure this is the way it works...

Do you have an OEM pack or an aftermarket pack? If OEM then this stuff applies, if aftermarket, I'm not really sure how those cells behave at lower charge states and/or what their voltages look like. Could be slightly different...
 

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This is a BumbleBee 8A pack. And a few caveats/clarifications. The assist current value (of 16A) is probably off since I also typically use the current hack during racing. I have the OBDIIC&C set for that (~33% higher current reading) even though in regular driving I disable the current hack. So, the actual assist current is more likely closer to 10A with the IMAC&C enabled. And when I say that the recharge current is "aggressive", this is only at initial application of the brakes. As long as the brakes are applied, the recharge is at max (according to instrument panel recharge bars - probably 50A hack reading, maybe 35A actual)). Once I go back to idle, I only get 4 recharge bars, maybe 5A hack reading, maybe 3A actual. Not so aggressive, and it still increases the IMA voltage at a pretty good clip...maybe a volt every 3 or 4 minutes. It all seems to be working as it should...the algorithms just seem to place a wall where you can't force much more discharge, even with the IMAC&C interventions.

Wordy, but hopefully interesting in some obscure way...

B
 

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I thought it would be an easy step to discharge the IMA pack using my Genesis 1. But the 2.4 software version does not provide a discharge-only function that I can start from my relatively low initial voltage value (150V). I need a version 3 update for that (as far as I can tell, and V3 is currently not available on 99mpg for download), or I need to charge before discharge, and be there to stop at the low value before the charge cycle automatically starts. I have a note in to Mike about updating the Genesis to V3. Otherwise, it looks like I will put the Insight into storage at 150V.

If there is a way to force the V2.4 software to do a discharge only, please let me know...

B

PS...I'm going to let it charge up a little...maybe to 160V...and see if it will accept that as an OK starting point for discharge. It seems that being below 155V may be a red flag to begin discharge (at least per a figure in the manual...shows discharge starting from 155V)...we'll see...

PPSS...That did it...charged to 157V, stopped and restarted, and now it is discharging...turns out a 153V cutoff is mentioned in the manual...to bring it to my target 140V min discharge volts (not 120V), I needed to disable the slope detect in test mode (along with everything else), and will need to watch carefully to manually shut discharge down where I want it...
 

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OK...discharge completed (to the extent available). I went to about ~139V where it started looking a little ratty. Once stopped, the voltage drifted up to around 144V, kind of as expected. But going down to 136V to get the 140V after drift seemed to be a push. And I didn't want to start again up at 154V to try a second time. I think things look as good as could be expected. No huge indications of cell drop outs that I can identify. Any glitches look as much like sampling noise as anything physical. Next step is to shut down the IMA and move the Bluesight to storage...

B
 

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New question...I'm back at my 2002 Insight trying to soak charge it up after 4 months of winter storage (and it was really cold here in Madison, WI). The battery voltage actually looked pretty good at about 162V before starting my charging attempts. The initial temperature was kind of low...about 42F, so I tried the Cold Charge option. It started for about 2 minutes, and then stopped with R12 (too cold inlet temp). So I tried heating the cabin and got it up to over 60F (at least per the inlet/outlet temp readings). I tried more charge attempts with Cold Charge off, and started getting R14 stops (too cold outlet temp). This doesn't make much sense since the measured readings that are showing on the data logger are now plenty beyond the 40 to 42F thresholds mentioned in the manual. And I used to be able to cold charge (with a delay...which i also tried) in previous winters where temps were quite a bit colder, even with the cabin heater.

Does this sound like a glitch anyone else has seen? I'm almost ready to start driving the 2002 without a charge cycle. And I'm also considering upgrading my Genesis to 3.01 (from 2.4.4) firmware version, though I don't see how that could help. Since the readings are coming in right, I don't think it is the temp sensors in the harness. But I can't see how it would be a new problem appearing in the Genesis software. I'm a little stumped by this...

B

PS...Updated to 3.01 and still the same. At exactly 2 seconds, get error R14 (outlet too cold) if start without cold charge option. Or R12 (inlet too cold) if start with Cold Charge option. "Measured" (indicated) inlet is 58F and outlet 60F, so temp is plenty high...
 

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Still not able to figure out the issue. But the tech data "calibration" info for minimum in and out temps are different now (right image) than what they were last month for my discharge data on the Bluesight (left image). They seem lower and therefore less likely to cause the error message. The numbers are the same with or without the cold charge option, so that isn't the issue. I may try to manually change today's number to correspond with last month's.

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So that's interesting...I replaced the current values for "Min In Temp Raw" (4) and "Min Out Temp Raw" (158 ) with the values from March (500 & 510), and, low and behold, it is now working without the R12 or R14 errors. I don't know if those bits got shaken out on the trip from FL to WI, or what. But it's happy now...

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Mike
I have a '01 insight and have been using a hybrid automotive grid charger since 2014 on a reconditioned battery installed by warranty in 2010. Recently the IMA light came on with a P1447 code. After two repeated charges the last being 20 hours there is not an improvement. I've heard about discharging but am unfamiliar on what equipment that is needed or how to complete it. I am considering buying a new battery but if discharging will help I will consider that option. Can you provide information or links to provide guidance? Thanks for any information.
 

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I don't think Mike is following IC closely any more. He has gotten out of the charger business and sold his Insights.

I'm a poor substitute, but I can give you a bit of information.

You have been doing well with your grid charger to wring 9 years out of a stock battery. A discharge cycle "might" get you a little more time.

You probably have an older Hybrid Automotive charger. Some of those were wired so as to be "discharger ready" and some were not.

The Hybrid Automotive web page is here:

https://hybridautomotive.com/

The simplest form of discharger consist on incandescent light bulbs. If you look at second of the first set of pictures on the web page, you will see what I'm talking about.

If you call HA at the number listed at the bottom of the page, they may be able to fix you up with a discharger. Have your model number handy

There are instructions elsewhere on site for the discharge routine, but I don't immediately see them.
 

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I'm getting a PTC value error when attempting to charge my IMA today. The value reads 80. Anyone know what this means and what needs to happen to resolve? I've tried restarting the charger a few times, each with the same error and value.
 

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The PTC circuit consists of 120 Positive Temperature Coefficient sensor junctions, one taped to the side of each of the 120 battery cells in the pack. This old thread claims, in post 14, that the total resistance of the PTC circuit is in the range of 18-25 Ohms at room temperature. It will be slightly higher, even on normal packs, as the battery grid charges and heats slightly.

https://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/13318-ptc-strips.html

Is this an older Honda pack, or is it a replacement pack?

If a Honda pack, then you likely have a cell which is charging at elevated temperature, thusly shutting down the charger.

Many of the replacement packs don't even have the PTC circuit installed, so the problem would be something else.

Need to know what pack you have. You can remove the fan from the pack and look into the stick matrix for the color or the heat shrink. Orange color usually indicates a Honda pack, though there have been claims that other diy rebuilders use that color.

You can also look at the sticker on the pack left front mounting fork to identify the source.

Have you owned the pack for a while, do you know the history?
 

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Is this an older Honda pack, or is it a replacement pack?
It's reportedly a Bumblebee pack. I'm the car's third owner, the previous owner put over 300k miles on it, but I don't have a detailed vehicle history.

Have you owned the pack for a while, do you know the history?
One of the first things we did was pull the pack and grid charge it. After letting it sit for two weeks only the last two taps (going Left to Right) were a bit off. The others looked relatively good.

I have a clutch switch installed and avoid using the IMA, although sometimes my knee inadvertently bumps my clutch switch and the IMA is used for motion (until I notice on the drive cluster).
 

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I think you are going to have to take the lid off the IPU. As I recall you have help from Natalia - not sure where I got the impression???

If so, then she is very competent in these matters.

While in there, you could try to identify the source of the pack.

I have the impression that some of the very early Bumblebee packs used the PTC circuit, but it has been eliminated from all the recent aftermarket rebuilder packs, probably including Bumblebee. When the circuit is eliminated, a small resistor is used to fake the PTC input.

There was a rather detailed discussion of this 6-8 years ago and most rebuilders had already eliminated the circuit. Honda themselves has eliminated the circuit from all cars other than the Insight. It isn't viewed as particularly critical and is a technical failure threat with the Chinese super packs, like the Bumblebee.

I'll see if I can find that thread.

There are various resistance measurements you could make, but I'll have to do some research. One immediate measurement, you can disconnect the wires connected to the "PTC in" terminals on the Genesis Temperature board and measure the resistance between those two wires. It should be somewhere in the range of 12-20 ohms.
 

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I ran the charger again an hour ago and it's working fine now. I think it was just too hot earlier today (low/mid 90s).
 
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