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Ecky - I mentioned 'vtec killers' in a general sense as there are all varieties of methods to essentially stay on the aggressive cams. As you mentioned one can replace the cams with a fixed cam however there are plenty of 'ghetto' ways to do this easily from locking the solenoid to using an EMS system to lie to the computer.

The value varies from engine to engine. My experience comes primarily from tracking my S2000 (just HPDE stuff). With the F20c if you drop below vtec you have less torque than a decent lawn mower. I just happened to have a vAFC which I could use to lie to the computer and tell vtec to engage at a nice low 4,000 rpm instead of 6,000. In hot track conditions this always kept me in vtec ... simple 'vtec killer' without swapping cams (not optimal but I wasn't racing for trophies).
 
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Out of first hand experience, I have to ask you a question about your Kirkey seat. Is this the entry level, single aluminum layer back:eek:

In SCCA all seats have to have a brace for the headrest part, but not at the time of my serious RX7 crash. At time of my huge multiple end-over-end crash, my entry level Kirkey seat headrest bent and essentially collapsed. Gave me a gimpy neck for several years, but it could have broken my neck. Highly recommend you attach a back brace. You could run a brace bar between the diagonal and the driver's side upright and attach the brace there. There are ways to make it adjustable quickly if need be.
 

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To original poster .... what kind of endurance series is this for? I didn't see anything in the thread. I'm really peaked by this idea as I could see taking an Insight and keeping the low hp engine, IMA and modifying the ability to boost (MIMA or IMA-C&C style) and just with some real grip and suspension mods for actual handling I think this could do well in something like Lemons or Champ Car ...... put in a fuel cell and go for looooooong stints at a turtle pace. If you could go something like 2-3 times the number of stints of a typical Miata or E36 in one of those crapcan series that could really make for an interesting attempt (beef up the battery pack and be able to do massive electric capture and assist. The only thing I'm usure of is how much work would be required, or even if possible, about the 'endurance' of so much rapid discharge and recharge of batteries for the IMA.
The OP has removed all his IMA stuff and gutted the actual motor so he won't be going down this route.
However it is all doable to varying degrees and has been done before and documented on here..
Lithium, supercaps, more power etc etc current hacks, voltage hacks, max boost etc etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
This car is being built to compete in LeMons, Champcar, and Lucky Dog endurance races. Myself and my team members usually can't go more than about 2.5-3 hours of race driving before we conk out, so I'm hoping the stock fuel tank will let us go this long without needing to install a fuel cell. It's more enjoyable to be able to let every team members drive each day (usually 3 or 4), so going longer stints isn't that important to me at this time. This will all change after the inevitable K-swap.

The seat is a Kirkey series 65 seat. I have one of the same series from a few years ago in another older endurance car and I've noticed that they've recently added some doubler plates to the back of the seat since I bought the first one. It looks pretty beefy around the headrest portion, however I'll definitely look into adding another brace. I already purchased Kirkey's matching plate they make for this purpose and will just need to fabricate an adjustable connection to the roll cage for it. We have an adjustable brace on the older seat and it works well.
 

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This car is being built to compete in LeMons, Champcar, and Lucky Dog endurance races. Myself and my team members usually can't go more than about 2.5-3 hours of race driving before we conk out, so I'm hoping the stock fuel tank will let us go this long without needing to install a fuel cell. It's more enjoyable to be able to let every team members drive each day (usually 3 or 4), so going longer stints isn't that important to me at this time. This will all change after the inevitable K-swap.

The seat is a Kirkey series 65 seat. I have one of the same series from a few years ago in another older endurance car and I've noticed that they've recently added some doubler plates to the back of the seat since I bought the first one. It looks pretty beefy around the headrest portion, however I'll definitely look into adding another brace. I already purchased Kirkey's matching plate they make for this purpose and will just need to fabricate an adjustable connection to the roll cage for it. We have an adjustable brace on the older seat and it works well.
Under full throttle race conditions you'll probably get anywhere from 25 to 30 mpg. The stock tank holds 10 gallons, so 250+ miles I'm guessing. Not sure if you have miles-per-stint info or not, but hope that helps. My car has no IMA, and if I'm flogging it I can't get under 25 mpg.
 

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Hmm, this is really making me want to go do some testing. I'd love to put the most rubber one can fit in a stock-ish Insight, use CVT, just keep the foot down and use a MIMA / IMAC&C type mod to effectively be my brakes and throttle. I wonder if the IMA system would be up for that .. or with some appropriate modding.

Now all I need to do is find more time in a 24/7 week ... and find some fellow Insight owners/racers in the Chicago area willing to form Team Insight (we could develop & test all we want at the Joliet Autobahn). I'll take this to my own post ... but keep watching this one.
 
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Hmm, this is really making me want to go do some testing. I'd love to put the most rubber one can fit in a stock-ish Insight, use CVT, just keep the foot down and use a MIMA / IMAC&C type mod to effectively be my brakes and throttle. I wonder if the IMA system would be up for that .. or with some appropriate modding.
All doable and discussed at length on here already in numerous threads on hacking/rallying etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I got my cooling system parts yesterday and did some rips around the neighborhood today while tuning the ECU. This thing's an absolute go-cart as it's currently set up. I had to swap the 7" rear springs from Ground Control for some 5" units due to the weight reduction in the rear making it stand too high, and she's now sitting about 2" lower than stock all the way around and handles like she's on rails. I cut and rewelded the spring perches to accommodate the Ground Controls springs and relocated the lower knuckle bolt holes about 15mm offset to allow for more negative camber adjustment. I can dial in anywhere from -1.5 to -6.0 degrees of camber now with Moog K90474 cam bolts in both the top and bottom strut-to-knuckle positions. Here is it sitting at roughly -3.5 degrees.
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Here is the difference in bolt position that would nominally fit 245 tires with 1/4" of clearance between the tire and the upper strut when using a 12mm spacer:
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Here is the strut after cutting out the offending components and welding in new washers in the proper position:
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I also took a picture of the final brake adapter setup while I was doing work on reassembling the suspension. Here is the inside of the wheel view:
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This is giving me a funny feeling. Like when I used to climb the rope in gym class......



Also, we need video of how this thing sounds with a standalone and all the rotating mass cut out!
 

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Here's my K24 with all of the rotating mass removed. ;)


Honestly the stock engine is going to give a much better balanced chassis. Mine understeers like crazy, and for ice time trials I was actually faster around before my swap. For this application I'd lean toward a small turbo on the stock motor, in addition to OP's gearing changes.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Here's my K24 with all of the rotating mass removed. ;)


Honestly the stock engine is going to give a much better balanced chassis. Mine understeers like crazy, and for ice time trials I was actually faster around before my swap. For this application I'd lean toward a small turbo on the stock motor, in addition to OP's gearing changes.
Yikes, that's a lot of torque steer and wheel spin. What model and size tires are you running?

I'm strongly considering the small turbo route, but I have low confidence in how well the stock engine will handle boost for sustained track driving (9-10 hours without interruption). I'm thinking a mostly stock K20 would be a more than sufficient replacement, very reliable in the same conditions, rev to 8,200 rpm, and mate up to a nice close ratio 6 speed with limited slip differential. Bear in mind that I've done a good deal of weight reduction (my car currently weighs 1450lbs even after the rollcage, fire suppression system, and bigger wheels/tires installed) and I am running a very customized suspension setup (roughly 4x the stock spring rates) and plan to run 245/40ZR15 sticky tires (200 treadwear Hankook R-S4). After a dry warmup lap at track speeds, I wouldn't see that kind of wheelspin even with a built K24.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
This is giving me a funny feeling. Like when I used to climb the rope in gym class......



Also, we need video of how this thing sounds with a standalone and all the rotating mass cut out!
Since this car is not street legal, videos might have to wait until I can get some track or large parking lot time in order to tune it. I drove it around the neighborhood a little yesterday and the neighbors all out walking around due to COVID weren't giving me positive looks. I've got a race trailer and can tow it anywhere. If anyone lives near the Bay Area and has any ideas on a place I can use nearby for testing I'm all ears.

Does anyone know how high this engine can truly rev? I currently have my redline set to 6,000rpm to match the original specs, but I'm assuming it could higher without too much issue. Is 7,000rpm a "safe" number?
 

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Yikes, that's a lot of torque steer and wheel spin. What model and size tires are you running?

I'm strongly considering the small turbo route, but I have low confidence in how well the stock engine will handle boost for sustained track driving (9-10 hours without interruption). I'm thinking a mostly stock K20 would be a more than sufficient replacement, very reliable in the same conditions, rev to 8,200 rpm, and mate up to a nice close ratio 6 speed with limited slip differential. Bear in mind that I've done a good deal of weight reduction (my car currently weighs 1450lbs even after the rollcage, fire suppression system, and bigger wheels/tires installed) and I am running a very customized suspension setup (roughly 4x the stock spring rates) and plan to run 245/40ZR15 sticky tires (200 treadwear Hankook R-S4). After a dry warmup lap at track speeds, I wouldn't see that kind of wheelspin even with a built K24.
Currently 185/60r14. I'm still seeing 60+ mpg in some conditions, and the tires are definitely a fuel economy compromise. They're around halfway between RE92s (no grip whatsoever) and performance oriented tires. This is also with a 3.4 FD (compared with stock 4.7) and an LSD.

What kills me is the K20 and K24 weigh basically the same in stock form. The K24 block is 1cm taller but is bored out larger, and has a heavy oil pump with balance shafts - which I removed, so it probably weighs exactly the same as a K20. The appropriate motor for this car in terms of weight and balance is probably an L15 with a more performance-oriented camshaft, but for a variety of reasons they're actually harder to put in than a K series. Several people have abandoned attempting that swap.


Since this car is not street legal, videos might have to wait until I can get some track or large parking lot time in order to tune it. I drove it around the neighborhood a little yesterday and the neighbors all out walking around due to COVID weren't giving me positive looks. I've got a race trailer and can tow it anywhere. If anyone lives near the Bay Area and has any ideas on a place I can use nearby for testing I'm all ears.

Does anyone know how high this engine can truly rev? I currently have my redline set to 6,000rpm to match the original specs, but I'm assuming it could higher without too much issue. Is 7,000rpm a "safe" number?
My bet is the bottom end could handle a lot more, it's the valvetrain you'd have to worry about. These engines are already known to rarely snap camshafts with the stock rev limit, nevermind anything else in the head, and good luck finding springs for it. The lack of VVT is also a bummer.
 

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I'm guessing the Camshaft breakage is more due to oil starvation than RPM. If you could mitigate oil starvation through an accumulator or something. I would be figuring out a way to carry more than 2.6 quarts it has in the pan too. I think it holds just over 3 quarts total after an engine rebuild. Some extra capacity would go a long way towards keeping those cams happy.

I've seen two heads that have spun cam bearings. They are galled like they went completely dry.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Why have the L15 swaps been abandoned? Since I'm running a standalone ECU and can build my own mounts, this doesn't look like that difficult of a swap to me. Swapping an L15B7 VCT turbo out of a current generation Civic Si would be pretty interesting. Grab the whole car on Copart, swap in the necessary bits, and sell the rest.
 

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Why have the L15 swaps been abandoned? Since I'm running a standalone ECU and can build my own mounts, this doesn't look like that difficult of a swap to me. Swapping an L15B7 VCT turbo out of a current generation Civic Si would be pretty interesting. Grab the whole car on Copart, swap in the necessary bits, and sell the rest.

Pretty sure it's because Hasport doesn't make mounts for it. The people that are into this chassis are all about hypermiling. For the most part they aren't into doing a lot of fab work. I'm not sure there's a good reason why the L15 isn't used more other than it's not a "drop in" swap. It should be a great option for more power (babeh!) and solid MPG's.
 

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I know that until the Civic L15B came out, most L15s were from Fits and had an intake that curved upward and sat on top of the head, making them too tall to fit in the bay. The only other option before then was the Civic Hybrid engine.

Brian recently finished his L15B turbo into a Fit, and stated that the wiring was literally as difficult, complicated and time consuming as every other swap he had ever done put together. I believe none of the body wiring for the Insight would work with it, whereas nearly everything works with an RSX ECU - cluster, emissions systems, ELD, A/C etc. etc. The Insight shifter works with the RSX cables, though I used a TSX transmission in mine. Plus there's a huge aftermarket.

The K series engine and gearboxes were designed to fit in bays shaped very much like the Insight's. If the transmission hump were any taller, it wouldn't slip under the frame rail. If it were any wider, the engine simply wouldn't fit in the bay. If it were any bigger front to back, the radiator and support wouldn't fit. If it were any taller, the hood wouldn't close. If it hung any lower, it would be a hazard for road use. Add all of it up, and then on top of that the axle alignment is perfect, and you can use off the shelf Integra axles, and it's kindof a no-brainer.

All else being equal, I'd rather have had the L15B, but the K series was relatively inexpensive and easy.

 

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No one has blown a stock insight engine thru over revving asfaik.

I would think it could handle 7k. Honda did over engineer a lot of stuff..
But spare engines are fairly common and cheap, so breaking one by revving would be an interesting experiment.

The UK CVT Rally car stayed at close to 6000 rpm all the time on rally stages when it was competing.
It was at much higher average rpm than a manual gearbox car as that's how the CVT works.

The camshaft failures are most likely due to oil starvation..

If you prep the stock engine properly, examine the cam/head bearings, clean out all the passageways and filters, run a decent flushing oil through it, and then use the correct 0W20 oil, you would be unlucky IMO to have a cam seizure failure.

The stock driveshafts are a weak area if at all corroded, especially around the vibration damper.
 

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The stock driveshafts are a weak area if at all corroded, especially around the vibration damper.

This is very true! The driveshafts themselves aren't "weak" compared to what kind of torque the motor is making (they could handle the IMA just fine) but they rust underneath the vibration damper. If you cut the damoer off, there doesn't seem to be any negative impact, and it will no longer pool water there.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
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I had to remove and/or replace all of the non-windshield glass in order to be legal for Champcar races, so I took advantage and made some slick Lexan windows for the back of the car and integrated an adjustable rear spoiler while I was at it. I also managed to get my hands on an original wheel skirt for the car and made a bit of a "widebody" kit to stretch the rear fascia a bit wider to accomodate the bigger wheels & tires. I also had to put a little kink in the cover itself (easily enough done with a heat gun). Looks fast and fits great. This thing is coming together!
 

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