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Wow, how do you respond to that? :confused:

In America they do not play the whole commercials in full that show the diesels arent like old women. They just show the parts where they hit on the salesman, then flash the logo and commercial ends.
 

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Bad day for middle management

Finally someone's been caught fiddling the tests. It's being described over here as the car industry's 'LIBOR moment', considering how much anecdotal evidence there is of cheating and gaming the numbers generally. I've seen adverts for 2 tonne 4 wheel-drive SUVs claiming 85MPG for ****'s sake. UK campaign group Transport & Environment (T&E)'s diesel expert, Jos Dings, said: “Our latest report demonstrated that almost 90% of diesel vehicles didn’t meet emission limits when they drive on the road. We are talking millions of vehicles.”

Worth reading the actual EPA letter to VW: Letter

You'll note that this is a bad one to defend. The application for conformity requires a detailed justification of each auxiliary emisions control device that results in a reduction in effectiveness of the emissions control system. I suggest that the EPA thought of this type of cheat and expressly worded the rules to deter it, rather than VW finding and exploiting an F1-style gap in the rules.

There would have been a mad scramble in Germany to check that higher management is not implicated in any email, in writing, approving this technology. Middle management must therefore be blamed. Some good people who were probably only following direction (but cannot prove it in writing) will go, unfortunately.

Oh, and VW's woes will only get worse. They could pay a horrible price for this. If VW can't engineer a simple solution to get the lean NOx trap working full time, if it can't be made to work without damaging the cats or reducing fuel efficiency (as it does in the Insight purges), if owners want their money back, if second-hand values of all diesels fall, if the French and other governments think that their own car industry has been damaged, if any insiders blow the whistle on other tricks to an inquiry (this is unique, right?), if the stockholders revolt, if...

At least Honda followed the low emissions track with real integrity. It can be done!

Per
 

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I read that after the public found out about the EPA incident, stock for VW dropped 20 points.

Willie
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Petrol or Diesel, the future for main-stream motoring?

i believe the technology exists to control Nox etc. in diesel emissions , but the cost is excessive, too excessive to warrant installation on anything other than premium cars with high end price tags ie Mercedes S class and similar, and not economic for lower priced small and medium sized cars.

Thinking of the cost-to-buld of a diesel car ,the figure can only be far higher than an equivalent petrol model.

A petrol car only needs a catalytic converter to make a workable vehicle capable of meeting emission standards

The diesel needs expensive components including a turbocharger, an intercooler, a DPF filter and a urea based chemical injection system, and even with those in place , the scenario is too close for comfort as VW have demonstrated..

I expect to see a return to petrol fuelled cars, initially with mainstream small hatchbacks

It is probably not only VW with software skeletons in the cupboard, they are simply the first to be found out.

Finally how quickly can VW develop a Prius for the USA, when Toyota have a 15 year lead?
 

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VW stock is now down 56$/share or 34.5%.

A well-deserved ouch.
 

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There are a lot of Americans who think that of Japanese made vehicles too. Some comedians use to joke that one day all the doors will lock, engines will stall on command and the Japanese will take us over.

VW, Mercedes have went in the gutter regarding quality. I just passed up a "FREE" Jetta the other day. Found out 2 weeks later the transmission went. :cool:

The USA consumers , who tend to look on European products with suspicion will now be convinced.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Nox adsorption, the chermical "sponge"

Here is a wkipaedia acount of how Nox adsorbers function, ( I assume it is similar to the G1 Insight Nox trap) Effectively a chemical "sponge" for mopping up Nox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx_adsorber

The account refers to Bueutec technology from Daimler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec

When VW and Daimler parted in 2007, did it lead to a breakdown such that VW lost access to the technological expertise?

Expertise required to make their 2009 onwards cars compliant with EPA Nox standards?
 

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I believe that the reason it only effected 2009 and newer is that these are the newer diesels that were made to comply with the tier 2 emission standards. We switched to 15ppm ULSD in 2006-2007 that allowed for potentially better emissions equipment to be used on diesels and all vehicles had tighter emissions standards being phased in by 2009.
 

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If VW can't engineer a simple solution to get the lean NOx trap working full time....
(1) There are NOx traps in the lean-burning 90s-era Civic HF, and 2000s-era Civic HX, Insight G1, and Civic Hybrid. Also modern Direct Injection engines. The technology works.

(2) And it worked in the TDIs too..... after all, they passed the tests for CARB, EPA, and Euro 5.

(3) So the fix is easy:

Make the car run in "emission test mode" all the time. It might have sluggish performance but it will be clean.
 

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I suspect the MPG will also drop. Then there will be a class action suit. This is not going to be an easy fix for VW to fix.

Sam
 

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I was telling someone that the other day. Its like the HCH IMA computer upgrade that made the car use less IMA and drop 10 mpg. In this case it will raise mpg, but drop power.

(3) So the fix is easy:

Make the car run in "emission test mode" all the time. It might have sluggish performance but it will be clean.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Newspaper Report VW traincrash

(1) There are NOx traps in the lean-burning 90s-era Civic HF, and 2000s-era Civic HX, Insight G1, and Civic Hybrid. Also modern Direct Injection engines. The technology works.

(2) And it worked in the TDIs too..... after all, they passed the tests for CARB, EPA, and Euro 5.

(3) So the fix is easy:

Make the car run in "emission test mode" all the time. It might have sluggish performance but it will be clean.
It is not that easy, to simply switch on the controls..

VW were alerted by EPA 12 months ago, and given the chance to rewrite the code, the emissions control under the new code remained unsatisfactory to the EPA. Hence the issuance of formal "Notice of Violation" which finally brought the matter to the public attention.

An interesting report in one of the more "learned" newspapers today

Year 2007 when the engines were under still in development, Senior Engineers at VW worked with an external technology partnership with Daimler as a necessity to meet emissions standards, under new VW leadership such "NO" Men were moved on, and the Daimler partnership dissolved.

Final development of engines completed by in-house staff who utilised inadequate VW emissions technology on the grounds of cost savings of 300 euros per car.
 

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Wheres that guy who was arguing with me about NOx and urea gone?

I was amazed he didnt know anything about it at the time.... maybe he worked for VW?
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Vw Dieselgate and now Petrolgate

The USA EPA have issued a second Notice of Violation to VW group, this one is for the 3-litre 6-cylinder diesel Porsche, and Audi Q SUVs etc

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf

The description of the operation of the software in performing the emissions violation is found on page 4.
Fuel combustion is purposely set, on detection of the EPA test drive cycle, to give a low Nox content / high gas temperature at the point of exit from the cylinders. The additional heating of the exhaust gas temporarily enhances the performance of the SCR catalytic converter, reducing NOx for, and only for the duration of the official test, after one second of the conclusion of the test, the code alters mapping to a real world mode and Nox increases by a factor of up to 9 times the specification.

In addition the Press are publishing allegations of similar defeat device cheating in the CO2 emissions of 800,000 petrol engined cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
VW Dieselgate Court Proceedings

A ] senior VW engineer n has pleaded guilty for his part in the VW conspiracy to circumvent US Clean Air Act standards and deceive authorities and customers as to the emissions compliance of VW diesels.

He is facing a maximum of 5 years in prison and $250,000 fine.

The court documents provide an interesting account of the history and implementation of the defeat device together with the attempts to cover up its existence.

Court Documnet Download link:

http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA10695399.PDF
 
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