Honda Insight Forum banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
804 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Maybe I'm becoming less skeptical about water injection. A couple of times just after a rain, the fuel economy seemed to increase about 10%. Anyone else experience this?

It tempts me to want to put a fine mister in the air intake. I still hesitate to meddle with the engine any more than that.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Delta_Flyer:

___About 30 years ago, some were actually selling kits for carbureted ICE’s to do exactly that. It was mostly a hoax way back when but I too have seen a 10 - 20 mpg rise when traversing light fog at cruise and as soon as it cleared, the mileage went back to a normal 105 - 110. This happened about 4 weeks ago on I55 South of Joliet and only lasted for about 3 or 4 minutes unfortunately … There is something to it but I don’t know what it is given I have driven in rain, before rain, after rain, through high and low humidity conditions and in all cases I haven’t seen a large increase like I saw when traversing that light fog bank.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2gqe8ogp][email protected][/email:2gqe8ogp]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
243 Posts
Water injection is primarily done to prevent knocking. It does this by cooling the incoming air and soaking up combustion heat when it turns to steam. By itself, it usually does not improve efficency/HP.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
830 Posts
(Sorry if I already wrote about this in a previous tread)

My knowledge is that the water cools the combustion. Water evaporation needs energy and it cools the burning process in the cylinder. This helps the ECM to add more ignition timming (less knock).

I tried that more about 20 years ago to make a V8 racing engine (high compression) run on 87 normal octane fuel. And it worked really well, than Firebird was really cool:
low ratio differential for best MPG, automatic transmission and the tires would spin shifting from 1st to 2nd gear at 60 MPH

In the long run, I experienced rust on the engine parts (everything was steel back then) and more in the exhaust. There was no catalyser on the car back then, I do not know if the catalysers and exhauts sensors will like the idea much, over time.

EDIT:Sorry flunkysama, we wrote at the same time
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Flunkysama and Yves:

___Water and Ethanol injection for cooling the intake charge to reduce knock has been used for well over 60 years now. Many WWII fighters had this capability and you dialed it in manually as needed for more performance over a short period of time.

___What we are discussing is that in some fogs or higher humidity conditions, there is an affect that does in fact increase mileage by a rather large percentage and it is worth talking about. This isn’t just timing advance for maximum performance or fuel economy, nor is it cooling the charge for an anti-knock prep thus leaving timing fully advanced under WOT. I just don’t know anything about the physics of the phenomena nor do I know anyone that has really done the work to make it a viable product for any of us and our automobiles.

___As for rust in the exhaust, much of an ICE’s effluent is already water vapor …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2gydddjj][email protected][/email:2gydddjj]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
804 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I've seen a number of companies trying to sell water injectors. It seems like someone would have just devised a fogger and just splice it into the air intake. Why make it major surgery?

What little I know on this topic is water injection benefits high compression engines such as the Insight the most.

I guess this idea will have to be shelved...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
xcel said:
Hi Flunkysama and Yves:
___As for rust in the exhaust, much of an ICE’s effluent is already water vapor …
It's not so much rust in the exhaust as it is rust on the head, valves, piston, rings...
Racers use water injection because they tear down their motor every race. There's no way I'd put it on my daily driver.

Fred
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Fscott:

___It isn’t the rust on the heads and pistons (Insight’s pistons, cylinder, and head are aluminum alloys) and such (valves are probably a high strength steel) that many here would worry about with a proper fog fuel mixture, it is the actual fuel economy. Racers run advanced timing and can use a higher octane fuel or some type of coolant (water or ethanol injection) to prevent pre-detonation for higher HP just as they use Cold Air Intakes for a higher density fuel air charge for more HP. Fuel economy drivers most certainly don’t want a cold air charge for more HP but want a warm air charge for a more efficient burn of the fuel air mixture which results in higher fuel economy. Hence the warm air intake mods. The high humidity fuel economy increase does not come about from any timing advance trickery. It is some type of RH/fuel/air mixture ratio that brings about a nice % increase in fuel economy. This increased fuel economy doesn’t happen whenever you drive through any fog bank or after every rain. If this perfect mixture was discovered, you might have a chance of duplicating it with a fog type device on the intake but only if it could be controlled to maintain this perfect mixture throughout much of an Insight’ers driving envelope. A S/D of the fog mixture device below a certain RPM would probably remedy any of your rust concerns.

___Again, I don’t know what the exact parameters that cause the fuel economy increase in high humidity conditions to appear but I have seen it with my own game gauge. With that, it does not come about from advanced timing but somehow a much more efficient fuel air mixture burn because of the increased amount of water vapor (proper amount of H2O at probably in a particular temperature band probably?) in the fuel air mix.

___Believe me that I am speaking well beyond my knowledge of the fuel air mixture creation and burn cycle here so take my comments for what they are worth. Quite a bit less then $0.02 in fact ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:3i7llg67][email protected][/email:3i7llg67]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
830 Posts
About ignition timming and cold air: my 2 cents

Timming:
=======
More advance timming improves efficiency. The purpose is to get the best punch on the piston top (at the right time). It improves HP for those who need it but in fact, it takes for the same power: less fuel (better MPG)
It is standard to try to put more timming (the reason for the knock sensor) . A good portion of the 114 octane race fuel addition in horsepower comes from the more ignition timming it allows.
But remember that timming is improving efficiency. Efficiency is better MPG


Honda's preprogrammed fuel injection:
=========================
For the Warm air mod, I do not beleive that it is related directly to the air temp and combustion.
For example, that thing existed for carburator cars. But the only reason was because at freezing temp and a little above, the ventury inside the carb (which causes air acceleration and therefore a vacum and a drop in air tempature) would accumulate ice due to the humidity in the air, and would freeze closed. The car would buck and stop. You would then let the engine warm up the carb naturally and you would drive again.
At lower than freezing, there is less humidity and the carb did not need the hot air anymore.
Fuel injection is not affected by the problem encountered by ventury (carb)

I am absolutly sure that the only reason the warm air mod gives better MPG is because of Honda's programmation for the fuel injection. They have used a program (responding to sensors) that gives much more fuel than needed for a particular cold air temp. You basically fool the computer into thinking that the temp is higher and it gives the Honda preprogrammed fuel for it. In the same direction, It could give you lean burn in environment where you would not have had it.
This is not combustion efficiency difference between using cold or hot air.

Last:
===
I think that we need to foresee what has Honda done in the car to comprehend how the environment modifies the MPG.

I have experienced it in the past with my car and the exhaust system lasting about 25% the life of the non-humid ones. I would not augment the humidity level for my catalyer$$$, sensor$$ and muffler$ even knowing that the tubes are stainless.

I agree with Fred, "There's no way I'd put it on my daily driver"
I do not know the % chance to have rust particules score my engine's cylinders and pistons. If it was that easy to do, car manufactures would have used it a few decades ago.

Again these are my 2 cents from my knowledge. I could be wrong but I do not forsee a reason.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Yves:

___But …

1. The Insight’s timing can only be advanced so far before knock or an exploding crankshaft.

2. The Insight at steady cruise through a fog type environment has shown a 15 - 20% increase for no other reason then the fog bank being driven through.

3. The Timing no matter what it was advanced or retarded to does not give a 15 - 20% increase in fuel economy at a steady cruise. Lean burn will but we are already in lean burn when the increase happens.

___This is why it isn’t about timing advance but something w/ the fuel air mixture and that excess H2O vapor. I don’t know what it is but it definitely isn’t in the timing or we would see the improved fuel economy when the timing changes, not when driving through a particular fog bank at a particular temperature.

___As for an increase in HP and fuel economy, something doesn’t add up in regards to our Insight’s. Whether that is the Fuel map or whatever, use a CAI in temps below 70 degrees and your fuel economy in an Insight will fall. Use a CAI in any std. ICE and the fuel economy falls as temps fall as well. The MDX’s fuel economy at ~ 55 degrees F and below drops by ~ 15%. You can see this on the game gauge. The Corolla drops around 10% below ~ 55 degrees F and another 10% below ~ 32 degrees. I don’t really care what HP is doing but if CAI’s worked to improve it, great. In terms of fuel economy in my experience with the Corolla, MDX, and Insight, the colder the AIT, the lower the fuel economy.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:67lyesbn][email protected][/email:67lyesbn]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
830 Posts
Hi Xcel,

You do have a point in that the water added is not to a 15:1 ratio but in lean burn, it is 22:1 (or about). Which was not tried in the 70' (my time, did not exist then)

But lean burn creates more heat than usual. I assume that timming is lowered then to prevent knock (preignition). The water could have a better effect on lean burn than on normal mixture.
This is where I think that you think is is consumed (hydrogen and oxygen) but it can not be (you just can not burn water except if you are on the sun, sorry for the phrasing)

The answer need to lie into how the ECM is programmed and reacts to the environment. And I only see the ignition timming.
You just can not see how the timming reacts except maybe with an ODBII tool . It varies according to the engine rpm, engine load,..

For the timming, I have no dought that the ECM can add more than necessary to the timming to make it knock in any circonstance. An a 10 to 15% change could be related to timming.

Which a better that usual environment (waterish) could help the ECM do more.

Test?
If someone want to do a semi quick test. You can use a windshield washer container with the pump into it (from a junk yard). Hook it up to a switch to be used only when needed (set to On manually).
For the nozzle, use a small copper tube that you press with pliers to create a lite mist. Then pcreate a hole into the rubber hose between the air filter and the Intake manifold and plug the copper tube into it.
Maybe someone would like to try that?
A more elaborate test would need a variable pressure regulator.

For the other car's mpg, off course all cars get lower mpg in the cold (everything is harder to turn, tires are harder, grease become thicker,....) but the difference in MPG you see with the Insight would not appear with the other cars. The Insight being more efficient, shows more differential in different environments.

My 1980 Jeep Cherooke with a 360 ci V8 turning at 3800 RPM at 60 MPH NEVER shown a MPG lost when the wind was in front or an addition with the wind in my back.
Actually, I drove 8 hours on the highway to the USA and back, to climb the Mount Washington and found out once at home that one of the 8 high voltage wire on a spark plug was removed (hanging, forgot to install when I replaced them).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
I thought that the explanation for the "fog effect" is that the water droplets in the fog (not vapor or relative humidity, but actual liquid water) would turn to steam in the cylinder, thus increasing the pressure (while lowering temperature, obviously), thus extracting more power from the gasoline being burned.

"My 1980 Jeep Cherooke with a 360 ci V8 turning at 3800 RPM at 60 MPH NEVER shown a MPG lost..."

But I bet the MPG was so low to start with that any gain/loss was lost in noise.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
830 Posts
Hi James,

Yes, "any gain/loss was lost in noise" was my point. On a high MPG automobile car it is easier to show if is some modification has affected the gas mileage.

That steam power would be in a very low RPM situation? Anyone care for doing a test (Delta, Xcel) ?
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi James:

___Interesting point? Of course some of the fuel (gasoline) is doing the same thing although at a completely different expansion ratio, completely different enthalpy change, and the fact that there is a chemical change for most of the fuel air mixture after the spark.

___Do you have any links to the water droplet to steam expansion theory for increasing fuel economy? For liquid H2O to phase change to steam takes a hell of a lot of energy and would receive that energy directly from the combustion process?

___Foxpaw, rain in particular is hard on our little beauties because of the increased drag of the tires on the pavement. It doesn’t help that the offset rear track creates 4 tracks to clear of water vs. just 2 if the front and rear tracks matched. So yes, rain will kill an Insight’s mileage. There might be a loss due to a very high humidity in the combustion process as well but I have only seen the fog effect increase the fuel economy a nice percentage for a short period of time.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:1t3zl0cx][email protected][/email:1t3zl0cx]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
WATER INJECTION

Hello guys,
Geoff Knight here. I have been building turbo and SC systems since the mid 70's and we used W/I and W/Alcohol/Inj for many years. There are some things that do happen--depending on the purpose of the injection. Yes, for W/I was use as an anti-detonant for the turbo & supercharged WW2 fighters, as well as NOX. The water-alcohol was used with great success. Alcohol was included to eliminate freezing of the water. We used it in the 70's to raise boost capabilities as 89 octane was as good as it got, and 5 psi would cause detonation w/o injection on a wedge-head V8. With water-alcohol we could run 7-9 psi. Alcohol is 100 octane+, so that helped a bit, and the water lowered the EGT by several hundred degrees. There was somethjing else that we discovered. The elimination of carbon buildup on the combustion chamber, as well as elimination of additional fuel enrichment was a benefit fof W/A injection. In a book I have somewhere there is a graph that shows the addition of water to a supercharged engine during testing in the 30's in France. The results were that the mixture needed only to be slightly richer, and the water seemed to cool the combustion process to the point of eliminating fuel enrichment completely. Cool stuff.
In ' 78 I worked with a retired Colonel who invented something awesome. A ceramic ventury was glued into a tube. The tube had a hole in it allowing distilled water to be added to the area between the ventury and the tube causing air which passed through the tube to pick up 100% humidity. Ceramic is porous, so the ceramic 'cone' would only allow water in particles to escape through it. It was called the 'Power Pack', and was featured on a 100mpg car on the TV show 'Thats Incredible'. There was a tremendous amount of world-wide testing which proved some crazy things--and this went on for years. A huge increase in negative ions was one thing that had everyone puzzled. Like driving in a constant thunderstorm, the fuel economy would go through the roof. We tested hundreds of cars, as well as Semi trucks. The Semi's gained .5 to 1 MPG, and when a trucker goes from 4MOPG to 5 MPG he is quite impressed. UPS tested some as well. The colonel and I even took two cars to the EPA testing facility in Wash, DC. A Mazda GLC 1.5 liter getting 70MPG, and a huge behemoth 460 Grand Marquis getting over 20MPG. A week later both cars were stolen--no bull, and all the 'stuff' dissappeared as well. While at the EPA for testing, we received the initial report by accident from an engineer who did the first city cycle simulation dyno run. CO, HC, etc were all down, and only CO2 & NOx remained static. In some areas the NOx went up 1-2% because it is a function of combustion chamber temps. But HC and CO were down a TON. MPG was WAY up (20%+) For comparison testing all they did was remove the water from the ventury and allow the unit to fully dry--no other mods were done. However, when the 'official' report was received several weeks later, all the results were WAY different. Everything was the same as stock or worse. I saw these with my own eyes--it is scary sometimes to think what is done by certain segments of the gvmt.
There are a lot of unexplained functions when using water during combustion. Water has two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen. Obviously the temps are not enough to seperate the molecules, but I am sure they are somewhat destabilized. That in itself could be some of the answer. Combustion temps run 600-800 degrees during cruising, and the water could lower that by a considerable amount, as well as eliminating the carbon buildup inside the combustion chamber. For anyone who has ever dismantled an engine after w/i is added, you will think the engine was just built. Not a trace of carbon will be left in the combustion chamber. This holds true for a 100K engine--if run with w/i for several months it will look new inside.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Fascinating stuff. Was the idea patented? Would you consider trying something like that on your Insight?
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi Atsturbo:

___There was another thread with discussion about a 100 mpg 60’s monster of an automobile on some kind of vaporized fuel before the carb here a while ago. I did not find it via search but there was a web site link with some information about the inventor who mysteriously passed by OD’ing on drugs even though the guy never took drugs according to his wife? Hopefully someone here remembers the thread and can link it for us? Irregardless of the conspiracy theories, there is something to all of this and with your hands on experience, why didn’t you just continue with your own work? So what if the cars were stolen? You guys had the knowledge and capability so just does it again if there was ever such a thing?

___Thanks for the combustion lessons as well.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:2ijs93ff][email protected][/email:2ijs93ff]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,332 Posts
Wayne, that other article was laced with incongruity, hyperbole and pseudo science. There may have originally been a grain of truth to the story but it was lost with time.

Last year a friend of my brother wanted me to help him built a perpetual motion machine. He had purchased the plans for several hundred dollars. The plans looked suspiciously like an electric motor project from a book I had in elementary school. Since I had already tried to build it 40 years ago I politely turned him down. He had a similar conspiracy story of an inventor who was now in hiding on an island from the oil company mafia. Well, the hiding on an island part was probably true. :wink:

However, the water injection idea does make some sense to me. Lowering exhaust temperature means that less heat energy is lost from the exhaust,therefore if the combustion is as complete, that energy must be going into mechanical energy. Just a theory. The Insight would be an ideal test bed because of its instantaneous mileage feedback.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Hi B1schmu63:

___Yes, I think all of these conspiracy theory hyper fuel economy stories are filled with some junk science in one form or another as the authors are either killed or they cannot duplicate there own efforts after the initial flurry of pronouncements. Cold Fusion anyone?

___Lower EGT’s are a good thing for many reasons (lower NOx production and the greater amount of real work performed via the > Delta T from full ignition sometime after TDC to EGT) but if the excess or more energy was used simply to phase change H2O (no work done for the automobile), then the lower EGT/higher Delta T is wasted other then possibly helping on the emissions front or lowering the threshold for preignition at a given degree of timing advance?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email:urf9z4u1][email protected][/email:urf9z4u1]
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top